MS. LAMP: Your Honor, the People call-—may I call my next witness?
THE COURT: Sure.
MS. LAMP: Dr. John Herman.
THE COURT: Sir, step up. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you will give in this matter will be the truth, so help you God?
DR. HERMAN: Yes, I do.
THE COURT: Watch your step coming up, the chair is on rollers, so be careful. The microphone isn’t going to make you any louder, so make sure you speak up loudly and distinctly for us.
THE WITNESS: All right. Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: State your full name.
THE WITNESS: John Alfred Herman, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And your middle name?
THE WITNESS: Alfred.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Miss Lamp?
JOHN
ALFRED HERMAN, DVM
Called at 7:17 p.m. by the People, sworn by the court, testified:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Dr. Herman, what is your profession?
A. I’m a veterinarian.
Q. How long have you been a veterinarian?
A. 1993.
Q.
Okay. Licensed in the state of
A. Yes, that is correct, ma’am.
Q. And do you know, are you aware of the Ponies Are Us group?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And how are you aware of them?
A. I have done some medical work for them, I’ve gelded some horses, stitched up a laceration a couple years ago. Treated some other miscellaneous farm animals for them.
Q. Okay. And who do you understand to be the people that comprise Ponies Are Us?
A. Kim Brucerelli and Brad Chaltry.
Q. Okay. You don’t know how to spell Kim’s last name, do you?
A. I would probably misspell it.
Q. Okay. And how long have you known them?
A. Approximately four years.
Q.
Okay. And were you aware of a
case involving horses in
A.
I was made aware of a case in
Q. Okay.
A. Kim had mentioned something about it and that work needed to be done, they were trying to find the owners and I said that I did not want to touch it with a ten foot pole.
Q. And why not?
A. The distance, the time, the question of the ownership and legal ramifications.
Q. Okay. And do you normally practice equine veterinary medicine?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. And did you at any time tell Kim or Brad that they could indicate that they were working under your authority?
A. No.
Q. Did you indicate to the contrary?
A. (No audible response)
Q. Did you tell them, I mean did you have a conversation about that at all?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Would it be okay with you if they said that they were working under your authority?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. Not to treat someone else’s animals.
Q. Okay. Do you have a vet tech?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Okay. So you would have not lent a vet tech to them to-—
A. No. I do not have a licensed vet tech.
Q. And would it surprise you if, if I told you that Kim and or Brad had indicated to Jackson County Animal Control that they were there to provide first aid to the horses at this farm at Michigan Ave and Maute Road and indicated that they were working under your authority?
A. Yes, it would surprise me.
Q. Okay. Based on your contact and knowledge of the people, Kim and Brad, would it surprise you if they had ripped a sheet of notebook paper out of the animal control officer’s notebook with your name on it where she’d written down that they were working under your authority?
A. You are kidding me.
Q. So it would surprise you.
A. Yes.
MS. LAMP: Okay. Dr. Herman, I have no further questions. Thank you.
THE COURT: Doctor, Mr. Dungan might have some questions for you if you’ll just bear with us a moment.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (At 7:20 p.m.)
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Do you just have a professional relationship with Kim and Brad?
A. I’ve known them for years. They were friends. I haven’t really talked to them a whole lot since Kim’s had cancer. She’s been in and out of hospitals for about the last six months. Since she’s been getting sicker there hasn’t been a whole lot of contact.
Q. How long have you been friends with them?
A. Probably, I’ve known them for four, probably for two years I’ve been friends with them. Maybe two and a half. It’s hard to tell where you become friends with somebody.
Q. So they started out as clients.
A. Yes.
Q. Where you provided veterinary services?
A. Yes.
Q. And then it developed into somewhat of a friendship.
A. Yes. That is correct.
Q. Okay. When people have been using this phrase, working under your authority, and I don’t know what that means. Do you have authority to say who can or can’t do anything? And I mean that honestly. I just don’t know.
A. These are not my patients, these horses, so I would assume that I would have no authority to tell anyone how to treat them.
Q. Okay.
A. Would be my assumption. No, I would not have authority—-
Q. You don’t have the power and authority to say---
A. No, no.
Q. –-who can do what to anything.
A. No, I don’t, no, I do not.
Q. So I mean there would be no benefit to saying I’m working under Dr. Herman’s authority.
A. No, it wouldn’t, because I would have to be out there supervising it, saying what to be done and I would have to have physically seen them to advise them on how to treat.
Q.
Okay. Did Brad and Kim ever
contact you about this particular case and what was going on out at
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Okay. And are you familiar with Brad and Kim’s skills as far as acting as animal rescue people?
A.
They have. I have known in the
past there’s several animal shelters that would call them to pick up farm
animals that were loose, unwanted, abandoned.
Not necessarily sick, but in the wrong, the wrong city; sheep in
Dearborn, that was a few years back, I didn’t see it but Brad told me about it
and I assumed he wasn’t making that up and they did go pick it up from the city
of Dearborn. I know from the city of
Q. Have you been over to their house as well?
A. Oh, numerous times to treat animals. Not recently.
Q. Okay. So you know what kind of animals they keep out there?
A. Yes.
Q. As far as the numbers and what kinds.
A. In the past, yes. I’m not sure what at this point since Kim’s been sick.
Q. Okay.
A. Farm animals.
Q. You haven’t been out there in about six months.
A. About six months.
Q. The last time you were out there they had all kinds of different farm animals.
A. Oh, yes, yes. Absolutely. And I would assume they still do unless they’re out of the pony business, and they would do petting farms.
Q. And you know they’ve got about eight to twelve horses out there.
A. I would assume so, yes.
Q. Okay. And are you aware from talking to them and being their veterinarian of what kinds of things they try to treat themselves as opposed to what they call you for?
A. They would call me, again, and the last, prior to Kim getting sick they would call me on just about anything. Recently they haven’t called me on a whole lot, but I attribute it to worrying about, I mean, I know she was in and out, I know she was in Chicago for brain radiation for about three weeks was my understanding, and then prior to that she was at the Cleveland Cancer Center for the gamma knife treatment.
MR. DUNGAN: Thank you, Your Honor. I don’t have any other questions.
THE COURT: Miss Lamp?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION(At 7:24 p.m.)
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Dr. Herman, is it your understanding that some veterinarians may have a close working relationship with their clients on farms, including farms that have horses?
A. Yes.
Q. And is it your understanding that sometimes a veterinarian would give medication and authority to administer medication?
A. To their own animals where a client-patient relationship exists, yes.
MS. LAMP: Okay. Nothing further. Thank you.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION(At 7:24 p.m.)
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Are we talking authority as in--
A. I would--
Q. Let me finish. They can’t do it without you saying so or just that you instruct them on how to do it and you’re comfortable with their skills to do it?
A. It depends on the medication, it depends on what’s wrong with the animal.
Q. Okay. Break it down for me. When is your authority-—
A. If a horse gets bit by a dog, I’d tell them to administer a tetanus shot immediately.
Q. Okay.
A. Many antibiotics are available over the counter, it’s standard procedure for most horse people, multiple horse owner, owners do have like Banamine in stock, they do keep it, at first signs of colic they will administer it, then they pick up the phone and call.
Q. Again, I--
A. And (indiscernible) anti-inflammatory.
Q. I got animals.
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You’re my vet.
A. Yes.
Q. What do I use your authority for? What can I not do without you telling me I can do it?
A. I think under the statute of the law if you are the animal’s owner you are allowed to do whatever. There are some things common sense prohibits you—-
Q. I know, I--
A. From a legal standpoint and even dogs and cats, not just farm animals, farm animals it’s very common for farmers to treat their own animals. Dogs and cats it’s not so common, but under my understanding of the law a person can treat their own animals to their basic limits of knowledge. Sometimes we’ll have people go up to Tractor Supply and buy penicillin for their dogs. That’s extra label usage. Do I agree with it, no, but there’s people that do it.
Q. What do I need your authority to do?
A. I imagine perform surgery, humane euthanasia.
Q. Something—-
A. And work on somebody’s animal other than your own. You certainly can only, a person can only legally work on their own farm animals, a lay person. If you own a dairy farm you can give your cow a shot of oxytosin for milk let down. You can treat her for a retained placenta.
Q. Okay.
A. You can’t go treat somebody else’s dairy cows.
Q. Not even with their permission.
A. That I’m, not, I’m not a lawyer.
MR. DUNGAN: All right. I don’t have any other questions.
THE COURT: Miss Lamp?
MS. LAMP: I had a question, Your Honor. If I could just have a minute to….
REDIRECT EXAMINATION(at 7:27 p.m.)
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Doctor you have the authority also to prescribe medication, is that correct?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And that’s something that you could not do without a veterinary medical license.
A. That is correct.
MS. LAMP: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Doctor, the basic premise that we have here with the questions that you’ve been asked is that you have a patient-doctor relationship with whoever’s treating their own animals.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Or if they’re having somebody else do it.
THE WITNESS: One of their farm hands or employees treating them.
THE COURT: But the premise is, is you must have that relationship.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct.
THE COURT: Before someone else can act.
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE
COURT: And it’s clear in this case that
Kim and Brad did not have your, the relationship, or excuse me, the
THE WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And as you said, you wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot pole.
THE WITNESS: Yes. For the reason why I’m here today, Your Honor.
THE
COURT: Okay. And did you give any penicillin or
THE
WITNESS: Over the years I’m sure
penicillin and
THE COURT: Okay. And whatever-—
THE
WITNESS:
THE COURT: Okay. And that was because of your relationship, doctor-patient--
THE WITNESS: Relationship with them and the number of horses they work on and colic, it’s a pretty common drug for treatment of horses.
THE COURT: Okay Thank you, Doctor. May the doctor be excused?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes.
MS. LAMP: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Doctor. Thank you for your patience.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Watch your step going down there.
THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
(At 7:28 p.m. witness excused)