Monday, July 2, 2007 – at 1:01 p.m.
(Court, counsel, parties present)
THE
COURT: People of the State of
MS. LAMP: I am, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Anything preliminary?
MS. LAMP: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And Mr. Dungan, I see the two gentlemen defendants are here. Mr. Dungan, are you ready to proceed?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Anything preliminary?
MR. DUNGAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you have a witness?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes, Dr. Kurt Williams who’s seated in the jury box.
THE COURT: Stand up, raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you will give in this matter will be the truth, so help you God?
DR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Come on up, watch your step coming up. Have a seat there. The chair is on rollers, so be careful. The microphone is not going to make you any louder, so you want to make sure you speak up loudly and distinctly for us. State your full name.
THE WITNESS: Kurt John Williams.
THE COURT: Spell your first name.
THE WITNESS: K-u-r-t.
THE COURT: Mr. Dungan?
KURT J. WILLIAMS, DVM
Called at 1:02 p.m. by the Defense, sworn by the court, testified:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Dr. Williams, would you describe for the court your educational background please?
A.
I have a bachelor’s degree and a veterinary degree from
Q. And that’s all still related to veterinary science?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what’s your present occupation?
A.
Currently I’m a anatomic pathologist, assistant professor with a joint
appointment in the Department of Pathobiology and Diagnostic Investigation and
the
Q. Is teaching part of your responsibility?
A. Yes.
Q. About what percentage of your time is spent on teaching?
A. Oh, probably twenty-five percent roughly.
Q. And research and publication is required for a person in your position as well?
A. Yes.
Q. And approximately how much time do you spend with that?
A. Oh, that’s probably fifty percent.
Q. And the rest of the time do you actually get to work on animals then?
A. Right. And the rest would be service work through the diagnostic center.
Q. All right. Do you actually work on animals who are still living or do you come into play only after an animal has died?
A. Through the biopsy service we do work on animals, tissues that are submitted to the diagnostic center for evaluation on, on surgical cases and other things that are still living, but we also do quite a few necropsies which would be then on animals that have died.
Q. So when you work on living animals you’re not actually necessarily working on the animal itself but just tissue samples that have been provided to you?
A. Exactly. That’s correct.
Q. All right. And when you say necropsy, that’s simply the equivalent of an autopsy for an animal. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you have extensive experience with necropsy?
A. Yes.
Q. In horses as well?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you give us any ballpark figures on the number of necropsies you have done, either overall or on horses?
A. Overall it would be a guess, of course, but it has to be, you know, thousands, and horses I would say hundreds.
Q. Some time around the date of April eleventh, 2007, were you involved with a necropsy that was performed on a horse that was identified as Lucky Seven?
A. Yes.
Q. How did that come about that you became involved with that?
A. It came about fairly routinely. It was an animal that was submitted to the diagnostic center. I don’t remember all the details of it, but I do recall it was an animal I believe that was at the veterinary teaching hospital or at least had come through the veterinary teaching hospital and was euthanized and brought to us.
Q. I have copies of two documents. One’s entitled Necropsy Preliminary Report, and the other is entitled a Necropsy Final Report. They’re both two pages documents, apparently generated by you?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that all the paper work you generated in this case as far as reports?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have copies with you today?
A. I, you know what, I think I left it in the car, believe it or not.
Q. Would it help if I provided you with a copy?
A. Yes, it would.
MR. DUNGAN: Could I approach, Your Honor?
THE WITNESS: Mm-Hmm. Are you having them both marked as exhibits? Are you going to use those as exhibits or..
MR. DUNGAN: No, I think he can-—just to have him testify.
THE COURT: Miss Lamp, do you have copies?
MS. LAMP: I do, Your Honor, thank you.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Would you take a look at those documents and I understand they’re both stapled together, if you recognize those as the preliminary report and the final report?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. All right. Let me start with the preliminary report. You did obtain a history obviously from people that had worked on the horse in the diagnostic center?
A. I’m sorry?
Q. You obtained a history from those who had worked on the horse?
A. Well, it’s the history that’s given to us.
Q. Right.
A. On the report. So, yes.
Q. And what history was given to you in this case?
A. Well, unfortunately and this is fairly typical for us, that we put sort of the essential first kind of statement that’s given on the history, and if it’s more extensive to save time honestly for, for the sake of the secretarial people and things, we then just put the complete histories on file and, at the diagnostic center.
Q. So essentially the information that appears on the report is that the horse was reported to have severe lameness in the right hind, and then you make a note, if you want more information, go see the diagnostic center?
A.
Right. Yes, we have. I mean, I can recall other things. I mean, I knew that it was a legal case and
that, from the
Q. To begin a necropsy, what is it that you do?
A. Typically we get a weight on the animal and then assess the animal sort of overall, looking at the, at the animal as it’s laying on the table to assess the body condition and, and then we kind of go over the external portion of the animal body or if this is skin, et cetera, et cetera, before proceeding to the actual examination of the internal organs.
Q. And that’s information that you described is contained under Gross Description in your report?
A. Yes, it is. I mean, we…
Q. Can you tell us what you found based on your gross description of this particular animal?
A. Again, we have the age of the animal and the weight in kilograms.
Q. Would you go ahead and say those so, so they’re in the record?
A. Yeah. Two hundred fourteen kilogram, fifteen month old colt, and we also, as I noted here, give some assessment of the body condition as well as the, the degree of autolysis, and autolysis is simply how well preserved the body is.
THE COURT: Will you spell that please?
THE WITNESS: Yes. A-u-t-t-o-l-y-s-i-s.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. And when you say autolysis is how well the body is preserved, does that mean if the there’s been any deterioration since death?
A. Right, yes. So auto, autolysis.
Q. All right. And what did you find as far as body condition?
A. We found the animal was in very thin body condition and sort of going along with that, the, there were a variety of osseous projections that were prominent. The wings of the ileum which are bones in the pelvis and ischial tuberosities which are also pelvic bones in the ribs, were prominent, and so all of those as well as an assessment of body fat stores within the animal itself kind of go into our determining body condition.
Q. And the fact that those areas are, that you described were prominent means you can see them easily through the skin?
A. Yes. And so the musculature around those particular bony prominences was reduced, would be implied.
Q. Which would be consistent with a thinner animal.
A. Exactly.
Q. Okay. Would you continue then with your gross description?
A. Would you like me to read it, sir, or…
Q. Um---
A. Or just kind of give you—-
Q. If you need to refresh your memory or we may stop you from time to time and kind of clarify what it is you’re talking about.
A. Sure. Yes. We noted multifocal areas of alopecia which is hair loss, with associated lice infestation, and on the left foreleg there was a crack that extended from the coronary band to the sole, and so that’s referring to the hoof.
Q. Let me stop you for just one second then.
A. Sure.
Q. The areas of hair loss and associated lice infestation. How serious was that?
A. It was pretty significant. I mean, it was significant enough for us to note it as a gross diagnosis.
Q. And if, that would, you know, assuming the animal had lived or had been treated before coming to you, how long would it have taken to treat a condition like that?
A. Are you referring specifically to the lice or—-
Q. Yes.
A. I think the lice would respond fairly quickly to therapy. And that’s not to say that it couldn’t get reinfested, but, you know, it’s kind of like treating a pet or something, you know, you can treat them and it’s a fairly rapid treatment.
Q. Can you put that in terms of days or weeks?
A. You know, honestly I’ve been away from the clinical side of things, so I’d probably, you know, be, I would think that a, again, I’m not a clinical veterinarian per se anymore, you know, I don’t do clinical practice anymore, but again, these are things that respond and in a matter of days you can have significant therapy or efficacy against an ectoparasite such as that.
Q. All right. So if that would have even been treated a week before you saw it, perhaps that condition wouldn’t even have existed at the time of the necropsy?
A. You know, I, it’s been too long I’m afraid for me to be able to say.
Q. All right. And then next you had described left foreleg, there was a crack extending from the coronary band to the sole?
A. Mm-Hmm.
Q. And that’s translates to?
A. Basically a split in the hoof.
Q. Okay. Again, not something life threatening that we’re worried about.
A. No, not at--
Q. As far as the cause of death.
A. Not at that time, no.
Q. All right. And continue please.
A. There was a two centimeter diameter area of necrosis containing a central puncture wound consistent with an injection within the right gluteal muscle. The articular cartilage of the right acetabulum, right opposing femoral head, left and right intertrochlear grooves of the tali and left and right intermediate ridges of the distal tibias were eroded--
Q. Okay. We’re really going to need a translation of that.
A. It’s clear to me. Okay. So would you like--shall I go back to the area of necrosis?
Q. Start with articular cartilage.
A. Okay.
Q. Please.
A. Yes. So the articular cartilage is, is that cartilage that overlies the moving portions of a joint. Okay. And so that, the articular cartilage then of the right acetabulum is the right hip socket, okay. And then the right opposing femoral head which is the head that fits into that, into that cup, the acetabulum, that’s what we’re referring to there. And then the left and right intertrochlear grooves of the tali are bones, again, cartilage covered surfaces of the bone and the hock, which would be sort of the equivalent of the ankle for a human. And then the left and right intermediate ridges of the distal tibias were also eroded, and this is where the tibia then runs over the surface on the hock. And—-
Q. So that, that’s all basically on the same, same leg or portion of the horse?
A. Well, I think we say that the right acetabulum, right femoral head and then left and right, okay, so both legs, intertrochlear grooves, left and right intermediate ridges of the distal tibia, so there was both right and left leg involvement if that’s what you’re referring to.
Q. All right. So all those areas that are supposed to have cartilage, there’s cartilage present but it’s been eroded.
A. There’s either cartilage erosion or as we, as we say, as we continue on in the right coxofemoral joint, so that’s that hip joint, there was full thickness loss of the cartilage, so an erosion would be partial loss, but not complete loss, okay, and so that’s different than the full thickness lesion that we referred to.
Q. Okay.
A. And then both testicles were hypoplastic and located within the sublumbar region of the animal, and there were no other gross, notable gross findings.
Q. Now, as far as the cartilage in these joint areas that you’re talking about, does cartilage serve essentially the same purpose in a horse that it would a human being—-
A. Yes.
Q. -–to make sure that the joints smoothly go against each other?
A. That’s correct.
Q. All right. And again, similar to people because of age or disease or being a long distance runner for too many years, your cartilage can erode for a variety of reasons?
A. Yes. There can be a variety of, that’s right.
Q. Now, this colt being fifteen months old, are we surprised that a horse of this young age has this lack of cartilage here that’s been eroded and some parts of it missing?
A. Well, it’s certainly not something we commonly see in, in young animals. When I say commonly I mean, you know, the vast majority of fifteen month old horses do not have that. But as we discussed or mentioned, osteochrondrosis is a degenerative process of cartilage that is not uncommon in young horses and other species.
Q. I guess what I mean is absent some type of sickness or disease this is an unusual condition in a horse-—
A. Yes.
Q. –-of this age?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And just to back you up. When you were talking about the testicles were hypoplastic. Does that essentially mean they haven’t dropped yet?
A. No. That means that he was cryptorchid as we say here grossly for the gross diagnosis, there’s bilateral cryptorchidism, so that means that both of the testicles had failed to descend into the scrotum and that, the atrophy is simply from them being in the abdomen and they, and the body heat causes failure of the, insufficient development essentially of the testicles.
Q. All right. And is that essentially what hypoplastic means then?
A. Right.
Q. All right. And then cryptorchidism is essentially the failure to descend?
A. Cryptorchidism.
Q. Cryptorchidism?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then bilateral means both of them.
A. Exactly.
Q. All right. What’s the cause of that?
A. That can be genetics, you know, it’s really not very well understood at all.
Q. Is that an unusual condition in a horse?
A. It’s not very common to be bilateral cryptorchidism. It’s not all that uncommon to have a single testicle that fails to descend.
Q. Okay. And then as far as the articular surfaces are concerned under your gross diagnosis, you diagnosed severe multifocal osteochondrosis.
A. That’s correct.
Q. And can you break that down for us?
A. Severe, again, that’s just giving some assessment, our assessment of how bad the disease is, and the multifocal is simply saying it’s involving multiple anatomic locations, and then of course the name of the disease.
Q. What is osteochondrosis?
A. Osteochondrosis is a very poorly understood degenerative disease of bones. It usually occurs, or the degeneration is felt to occur in young animals, again, it is not well understood at all as to what causes it and, but it can lead to very severe, ultimately very severe joint disease long term and, you know, with chronic arthritis and is a not uncommon cause of lameness in a variety of species.
Q. Including horses?
A. Including horses.
Q. Okay. And when you say one of the gross diagnoses is severe multifocal osteochondrosis, is that the formal name that you’re calling this issue with the cartilage that we discussed?
A. That’s what, exactly, that was our assessment at the time, yes.
Q. All right. Would you turn your attention then to the Necropsy Final Report? There’s apparently a microscopic description?
A. That’s correct, yes.
Q. That was, what, taken of various tissue samples?
A. That’s right.
Q. I guess just in the interest of saving time. Was there anything that you found that was significant to cause the death of this animal, or why this animal had to be put down?
A. Well, again, you know, unfortunately we need to get the final histology done on the bone lesion which, very honestly, is still pending for a variety of sort of technical problems we’ve had in getting decent sections of the bone.
Q. What are we looking for in those samples that we’re waiting for?
A. Those again, well, we’d like to try and confirm the loss of cartilage that we saw just with our naked eye, but then you can also look for retention of cartilage in the bone and there sometimes may be small fractures of the bone where the bone, in the bone beneath the cartilage.
Q. Do you expect to see anything that would change the diagnosis that you’ve already talked about?
A. Very honestly, no, I don’t.
Q. All right. And I’m sorry, I think I cut you off then. Anything else in the microscopic description that was relevant to cause of death?
A. Well, I mean, the animal was euthanized so the cause of death for us would be, would be euthanasia very honestly—-
Q. Well, I should say why the animal had to be euthanized.
A. Yes. You know, the zymogen granule depletion in the pancreas certainly goes along with an animal that’s, that’s nutritionally, if it’s a thin animal, that’s a not uncommon finding.
Q. What does that mean if he’s moderate zymogen depletion?
A. That refers to the, in the pancreas the, there are two major functions of the pancreas. One is to produce insulin and other hormones, but the other major function is it produces pancreatic enzymes that help in digestion and things, and you can, pardon me, microscopically you can see the little storage packets basically of the digestive enzymes and those are the zymogen granules.
Q. Okay.
A. And so in animals that are calorically challenged you may see zymogen granule depletion. And so again with a thin animal that is significant. But the others I would consider at this point to be incidental.
Q. Now, you were aware that this particular horse was put down essentially because of a fractured pelvis.
A. I’m sorry?
Q. Are you aware that this animal was put down essentially because of a fractured pelvis?
A. I don’t, I don’t recall that honestly.
Q. Okay. If you saw the diagnostic records, would that perhaps help refresh your memory?
A. Sure.
MR. DUNGAN: Judge, I would like to have a set of these marked and admitted then.
THE COURT: I think they’re C and D.
(At 1:21 p.m. proposed DX C marked)
THE COURT: You just had one? Oh, is it C?
MR. DUNGAN: C.
THE COURT: Defendant’s C.
MR. DUNGAN: If you need to take a look at those, if you want to take a coupe minutes and look through them.
THE WITNESS: Sure.
(At 1:22 p.m. recess)
(At 1:23 p.m. proceedings reconvened; court, counsel, parties present)
THE COURT: All right, Doctor. Are you all set?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dungan?
MR. DUNGAN: Thank you.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Dr. Williams, if a fifteen month old colt has this osteochondrosis, what can I expect to see as far as effects on that particular animal?
A. Well, again, just like the, understanding the cause of the disease is very poorly understood, the severity of it, how badly it manifests itself can vary too, so it could be the animal, you know, you can find, in a necropsy on an animal there may be an incidental osteochrondrosis lesion that really didn’t clinically bother the animal at all to, you know, very severely affected animals that are, that are markedly lame. So I don’t think there’s any sort of one blanket presentation for it.
Q. But if the disease does start to manifest itself, what would I actually see or expect to see from that animal?
A. Well, it, pardon me. Again, it depends upon the location of the lesion and the severity of the lesion. So they can get osteochondrosis lesions in limbs and it may manifest as lameness, they can get osteochondrosis lesions up in the vertebral bones in the neck, and it may actually manifest as that will cause some instability and it may manifest as, as neurologic signs. So it’s kind of complicated.
Q. What could we have expected to see in this particular animal?
A. Oh, in this particular animal I would have expected at some point in time this animal would have started off being lame, you know, and as the lesion progressed I would have expected that lameness to have gotten worse.
Q. All right. Now, you had a chance to review exhibit C, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And if I could turn your attention to page nine. One of the questions I wanted to ask you too, as far as--
THE COURT: This is your C?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes.
THE COURT: Do you have any objections to—-do you want that admitted?
MR. DUNGAN: Please.
THE COURT: Do you have any objections to C admitted?
MS. LAMP: Which one is C, Your Honor? I didn’t…
MR. DUNGAN: It’s the records on Elvis from---
MS. LAMP: Dr. Martenuik? Yes, that’s fine. I just want to know which one we have.
THE COURT: This is whose report then?
MR. DUNGAN: Dr. Marteniuk’s records on Elvis.
THE COURT: Okay. C is admitted.
(At 1:25 p.m. DX C admitted)
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Now, as far as this fifteen month old colt having this osteochondrosis and effects on that horse. Is that disease going to make that horse more likely to be injured easier I guess?
A. I mean, what kind of injury? I mean injury is a broad term, so…
Q. The areas that have osteochondrosis in the joints. Is it-—
A. Well, certainly that, you know, getting that process developed is going to predispose it to potentially developing full thickness cartilage loss and arthritis down the road, yes, I would agree with that.
Q. Does it have any effect on bone strength?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. What effect does it have?
A. It causes a reduction-—now, when I say bone strength, I’m not referring to overall bone strength of the animal, but a local bone strength in those areas of degeneration. That bone is weakened.
Q. Why is that?
A. Well, again, it’s part of the degenerative process and the improper sort of transition in bone development into nice solid bone essentially. And so that bone then is prone to breakage and so you can get in addition to cartilage loss you can actually get little depressions in those areas of osteochondrosis because of that weakening of the, local weakening of the bone.
Q. So an area that has this particular disease is more subject to injury or fracture in a bone than an area that doesn’t have that.
A. Yes. But again, I don’t want to, not fracture in sort of the fractured leg, it’s really sort of microfractures, local fractures of the bone, and it’s kind of maybe hard to describe, but, you know, the bony architecture beneath that cartilage is like a little lattice work, okay, and so it can lead to fractures of that lattice work in the areas of degeneration, but not in, it’s not going to necessarily cause that leg bone to break. Am I making myself clear?
Q. I think so, yeah. All right. Page nine of the exhibit that was just admitted. The bottom of the first paragraph under Case Summary, last sentence it says, apparently Animal Control had picked him up from the neglected farm in question three weeks ago, thinking he was dead because he was recumbent and being trampled. Did you see that area?
A. Is that page nine?
Q. Yes.
A. I saw the handwritten. I’m on page nine and, he has been in the rescue organization’s care-—am I on the right one? Lucky Seven is the yearling paint gelding presented? I’m sorry. Page nine…
Q. It would be that part right there.
A. Okay. Sorry.
THE COURT: Do that again, Mr. Dungan. What are you referring to?
MR. DUNGAN: It’s the last sentence at the bottom of paragraph one.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. And would you just go ahead and read that aloud please, Doctor?
A. Yes. Apparently Animal Control had picked him up from the neglective farm in question three weeks ago thinking he was dead because he was recumbent and being trampled.
Q. And if you would turn to page nineteen. I’m not sure whose handwriting that is down at the bottom. Does it look like something you could read?
A. Yeah, I can read it.
Q. You’re a doctor, you can read anything.
A. Yeah. You should see my handwriting.
Q. The second sentence says this horse was found down in a group of approximately seventeen horses and was initially thought to be dead. Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. And then it says the colt was recumbent and needed assistance to rise since Animal Control and the rescue found the horses. Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes, you did.
Q. Now, my question is, if this particular horse that we’re talking about was down on the ground and got trampled on by other horses and was trampled on in the area where it had osteochondrosis, would that area where it had osteochondrosis be more likely to be fractured or injured by being trampled on?
A. Oh, boy. You know, I suppose that, I suppose that that physical, certainly physical trauma to that area could exacerbate a lesion such as that.
Q. I mean, if it got stomped on in a healthy area as opposed to being stomped on in an area with osteochondrosis-—
A. Sure.
Q. I mean, are we more likely to see—-
A. Yes.
Q. See injury in the area that had osteochondrosis?
A. Sure.
Q. All right. Oh, one other question I had about an area we talked about before the pancreas with the diffuse moderate zymogen depletion. How long does it take for you to see a change in that based on not receiving enough nutrition?
A. The zymogen depletion?
Q. Yes.
A. Oh, you know, we really only ever see it in animals that are, you know, weeks of, you know, caloric insufficiency typically.
Q. All right.
A. So I’d say, you know, at least a week.
MR. DUNGAN: All right. Thank you, Doctor. I don’t have any other questions.
THE COURT: Doctor, Miss Lamp may have some questions for you. Can you bear with us?
THE WITNESS: Sure.
THE COURT: Miss Lamp?
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, I don’t have any questions for Dr. Williams at this time.
THE COURT: Okay. Just a minute, Doctor. You mentioned before that you’ve been away from clinical medicine too long or for some time. Could you quantify that as far as has it been ten years, five years?
THE WITNESS: You know, I don’t want you to, I don’t want to imply that I’m incompetent, you know, but---
THE COURT: Well, I’ll make that assumption.
THE WITNESS: Well, my wife’s a veterinarian and when my brothers call with--
THE COURT: She thinks you are?
THE WITNESS: --a dog question they say, oh, put your wife on. All right. No, by that I mean that I don’t do, I haven’t done clinical practice---
THE COURT: But that’s important to you that when Mr. Dungan was asking you questions to qualify some of your answers by saying I haven’t been in clinical for a while.
THE WITNESS: Sure.
THE COURT: Just tell me how long you might be---
THE WITNESS: Sure, oh absolutely. It’s been, oh, gosh, it’s been since probably 1991.
THE COURT: Okay. When you did your overall assessment and your external examinations, body condition, you mentioned that in words as very thin. Do you use any-—did you and do you use any type of numbering system?
THE WITNESS: You know, some pathologists will do a body condition score and I’m not one of those people. Typically it’s more of a, that usually is more of a clinical assessment in my opinion. And so we usually kind of give it a, a, an assessment again based upon how much body fat we see and the overall body condition of the animal prior to opening it. And I’m not personally, I do not use body condition scores. I leave that more to a clinicalist, I think that’s more of a clinical judgment.
THE COURT: Okay. Could you tell if this colt was born with this, is this, I don’t know if I’m saying this right and it’s my ignorance, but is this colt born with this disease?
THE WITNESS: Osteochondrosis, or…
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: No. They’re typically not born with osteochondrosis.
THE COURT: Are you able to tell, if that’s true and apparently it’s an absolute, can you tell if it was treated in any way?
THE WITNESS: No, you, I cannot tell. I mean, typically there’s not, other than symptomatic treatment there’s not something that targets the osteochondrosis specifically. So it would be, you know, akin to somebody that’s, you know, has lameness or arthritis or some-—
THE COURT: And that’s a degenerative disease, right?
THE WITNESS: Exactly.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything further, Mr. Dungan?
FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION(At 1:34 p.m.)
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Well, I think I understand you saying to the judge that they’re not born with osteochondrosis.
A. That’s correct.
Q. But it is considered genetic?
A. Well, it’s not really known. I mean, some people think that genetics plays a role in the disease, but it’s really very poorly understood. And whether or not there’s a genetic component to it is really, again, that’s something that’s not known.
Q. Okay.
A. It depends upon, you know, the study you read very honestly. Some people says it’s absolutely genetics, there’s other people that say no, there is no obvious genetic component. So again, I think it’s really not very well understood.
Q. Okay. But I mean you’re not here to say that it’s something caused by taking care of a horse in a poor manner?
A. I’m here to tell you that the disease is so poorly understood that I, there, we don’t have enough information on whether or not, you know, nutrition alone does it. There’s not good information on that either other than maybe experimentally copper deficiency, but beyond that it’s really very poorly understood.
MR. DUNGAN: All right. Thank you, Doctor. I don’t have any other questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: If not caused by poor treatment, could it be exaggerated or exacerbated by poor treatment?
THE WITNESS: Could the, could the lesions themselves be exacerbated by treating the animal? Again, usually animals are treated symptomatically for the pain and things and then so it’s not going to exacerbate, you know, per se the degenerative change. I don’t know if that’s clear or not, but I suppose if the animal felt really well on, on the, on the pain relief medications and things, that it may go out and, and do something to exacerbate the lesion, I suppose that’s possible.
THE COURT: How would this colt exhibit this degenerative disease?
THE WITNESS: With the lesions that this animal had, it would have exhibited initially again as lameness and-—
THE COURT: Is there a degree based on what you observed?
THE WITNESS: Pardon me?
THE COURT: Was there a degree? Real lame, just--
THE WITNESS: Well, again, I didn’t see the animal clinically. I saw the animal after he had been euthanized, so…
THE COURT: Would you say that the exhibition of this disease by the horse would be evident?
THE WITNESS: Oh, absolutely, yeah, I would say the lesions, especially particularly in the hips, I have no doubt that this animal would have been severely lame.
THE COURT: Do you have any questions, Miss Lamp?
MS. LAMP: Just one.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (at 1:37 p.m.)
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. What if any role, Doctor, does nutrition play with osteochondrosis? I don’t know if I said it right.
A. Osteochondrosis? Well, again, it’s really not very well understood as to what role nutrition plays precisely in osteochondrosis. You know, again, as I said moments ago it’s considered to be kind of a multifactorial disease. There may be a genetic component, there may be a nutritional component and how the animal is used, you know, some people think may have some role to play in how much, you know, how quickly we push, especially athletic animals, push them and cause stresses to joint surfaces and things, but very honestly, the role of nutrition in osteochondrosis while I think everybody would agree that it plays a role, there just is no consensus in veterinary medicine as to what role it, it plays.
MS. LAMP: Thank you. Nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Dungan?
MR. DUNGAN: No thank you.
THE COURT: May the doctor be excused?
MR. DUNGAN: He may. Thank you.
MS. LAMP: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, Doctor, thank you for your time.
(At 1:38 p.m. witness excused)