(At 4:58 p.m. proceedings reconvened; Court,
Ms. Lamp, Officer Wheaton present)
THE COURT: Miss Lamp?
MS. LAMP: Yes, Your Honor. There’s been an incident and I thought the court should be aware of it.
THE COURT: We’re back on the record on Mercier and Henderson. Miss Lamp?
MS. LAMP: If I could, I’ll just let Ms., Officer Wheaton explain to you what I heard.
THE COURT: Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you will give in this matter will be the truth, so help you God?
OFFICER
THE COURT: What have you got to say?
OFFICER
THE COURT: Okay.
OFFICER
THE COURT: Was anyone else there?
OFFICER
THE COURT: Was anyone with you?
OFFICER
MS. LAMP: She had already gone out to her car, Judge, this is the second time this has happened.
THE COURT: Where was the first time?
MS. LAMP: The first time was when he grabbed Officer Luce by the arm and told her that he’d be out to the farm the next day.
THE COURT: So what are you proposing that we do?
MS. LAMP: I’m just bringing it to your attention and whatever you think is appropriate, and if you think nothing is appropriate, then that’s the court’s decision.
THE COURT: Well, I think I remember talking to Mr. Henderson, probably Mr. Mercier too about their conduct. And that was probably early in the process as I recall. Have you touched base with Mr. Dungan at all?
MS. LAMP: I went downstairs to retrieve Mr. Henderson, Your Honor, and the security guards indicated they couldn’t hold them, that they had called their attorney and their attorney had instructed them to come to his office. So it’s my understanding that he was going over to Mr. Dungan’s office based on what security told me.
THE COURT: Okay. Can you touch base with Mr. Dungan and if it’s possible for him and you and Mr. Henderson to be here at eight tomorrow morning?
MS. LAMP: Sure.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MS. LAMP: Thank you, Your Honor.
OFFICER
(At 5:01 p.m. proceedings concluded)
THE COURT: Mr. Dungan, anything further?
MR. DUNGAN: No, sir. Thanks.
THE COURT: Miss Lamp, anything further?
MS. LAMP: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Let’s do the contempt hearing. When we left before, Officer Wheaton had testified. If you want to cross her some more I’ll give you that opportunity because you’ve now had a chance to investigate that to some extent.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, may Officer Luce come in the courtroom since I will not be calling her as a rebuttal witness nor do I anticipate calling her on the bond hearing?
THE COURT: Yeah, that would be fine.
MR. DUNGAN: Your Honor, I think I’ll just start with calling Mr. Henderson.
THE COURT: Well, I want, I don’t know if the prosecution’s done yet as far as if they have any more witnesses. But I just wanted to allow you another opportunity. I just was allowing you another opportunity to cross because there may be some additional questions that, because we caught you short the last time, that you may have some questions of her now that you’ve had a chance to investigate. Or more questions. Maybe not. It’s up to you. Are you okay?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes, yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Miss Lamp, do you have any other further witnesses on the contempt?
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, I do not have a further witness, but Mr. Bradley after great event has been able to pull together a video of the incident that occurred. It would not have audio.
THE COURT: Who’s Mr. Bradley?
MS. LAMP: Rick Bradley.
THE COURT: Oh, okay. That’s okay.
MS. LAMP: But he was able to pull that together. He provided that to Bev Strickrodt today. I had occasion to view it during our ten minute break and it does, it shows actions are consistent with Officer Wheaton’s testimony.
THE COURT: Are you presenting that tape?
MS. LAMP: I’d like to present the tape. I don’t have Rick Bradley here to do that, but I would like to put the tape into evidence.
THE COURT: You’ve seen the tape?
MR. DUNGAN: No. This is the first I’ve heard of it.
THE COURT: Oh, yeah. Well, we can’t do that unless Mr. Dungan has the opportunity to review it first.
MS. LAMP: I could take him up and show him that video, Your Honor.
THE
COURT: Do you want to do that now?
MR. DUNGAN: Yeah, I’d like to take Mr. Henderson with me
as well.
THE COURT: Okay. Why don’t you get the tape and bring it down and we’ll run it over here.
MS. LAMP: I’m not sure if we can do that, Your Honor. Let me check. It’s one of those funny four ply tapes I think. Let me just check.
We have to do it upstairs in the prosecutor’s office, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay, all right. We’ll recess for you to do that with Mr. Henderson.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, may we approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
(At 8:37 p.m. conference at bench between court
and counsel; off the record)
THE COURT: We’ll have Officer Chapin and you can take Dunlap with you too if she’s not a witness.
MS. LAMP: I will, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. You say it’s about ten minutes. We’ll meet back here at nine.
MS. LAMP: It won’t take us very long.
(At 8:38 p.m. recess)
(At 9:04 p.m. proceedings reconvened; court,
counsel, parties present)
THE
COURT: Okay, we’re back on the record in
MR. DUNGAN: Yes, I would like that opportunity, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. And this is a little bit later than we usually go from what my staff tells me. And so if eight o’clock Friday is agreeable for this to continue on that. Also the second reason I want to do it is because there’s in addition to all the notes that I have rewritten through a particular, another note pad, now we obviously I think each of you would agree, some significant testimony today that I just don’t want to adlib or freelance with any opinions, I want to go back and look at it in the calmness without he battle ongoing at the time. And if, and certainly allow each of you an opportunity to review your notes for purposes of closing Friday as well.
MR. DUNGAN: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: So I would like to start at eight. I’m supposed to have a civil bench trial at eight as well, but that can wait. If it even goes. I’ve heard some rumors it may not. Anything else, Miss Lamp?
MS. LAMP: No, thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Now, in the viewing of the tape, it’s not able to view but in your office?
MS. LAMP: As I know of at this time. But Mr. Bradley will be back here between now and, I can check with him—-
THE COURT: Will you have time to check with him? Because I---
MS. LAMP: Between now and Friday I certainly will.
THE COURT: Should we do that, should we view that first then, Mike? What do you think?
MR.
DUNGAN: Before Friday you mean?
THE COURT: No.
Friday morning do that first?
MR. DUNGAN: Yeah, yeah, I think that would be appropriate.
THE COURT: Find out what you can and let Mike know about what Rick Bradley says.
MS. LAMP: Okay.
THE COURT: If he can play it here, it would be better.
MS. LAMP: Right. I certainly agree.
THE COURT: Because I think it’s a public, a piece of evidence that the public’s entitled to see as well and it seems like in our day of technology we shouldn’t have to have something in the prosecutor’s office, but I don’t know what type of technology they have down there. It strikes me it should be relatively modern, but…
MS. LAMP: Well, Rick Bradley initially told me we might have to go to another building to watch it.
MR. DUNGAN: It’s one of the four square tapes where it picks up four scenes at the same time and you do need specialized equipment for that. You can’t just throw it in a standard video or DVD.
THE COURT: I thought we might though because of the idea of having the security downstairs for later purposes if there’s a brouhaha or if unfortunately something like this is alleged.
MS. LAMP: Maybe the equipment can be brought down. I don’t know. But we’ll, I’ll look into all of that.
THE COURT: Okay. Let’s work on all the angles and I just feel that I need, I owe it to you guys for the fine work you’ve done and also Mr. Henderson and Mr. Mercier to be able to go over my notes and away from the fray and you two have an opportunity to continue developing the work that you’ve done today.
MR. DUNGAN: I appreciate that opportunity, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. And goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are, huh?
MS. LAMP: Thank you, Judge.
MR. DUNGAN: Thank you, Your Honor.
(At 9:08 p.m. proceedings concluded)
Friday, July 20, 2007 - at 8:01 a.m.
(Court, counsel, parties present)
THE COURT: People versus James Edward Henderson, Jr., 073772FY, and Matthew Patrick Mercier, 073773FY. I see Jennifer Lamp over there for the prosecution, Michael Dungan and Dennis Hurst and the two gentlemen defendants here. Before we left off, folks, we were in the middle of the contempt aspect from before. And Miss Lamp, you said you had no further witnesses?
MS. LAMP: No. I just wanted to admit the tape, that’s all, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Is that ready to go, or don’t you know?
MS. LAMP: Is it in the video thing? Okay. I’d like to have the video if I could mark it and then we could put it into evidence.
THE COURT: Well, if it’s not ready to play, what we can do is take some testimony and then we can always come back to that. So sure, you can have that marked.
MS. LAMP: Okay.
‘ THE COURT: Mr. Dungan and Mr. Hurst on the contempt?
MR. HURST: Yes. We’re happy to put Mr. Henderson on the witness stand.
THE COURT: Okay, very good.
MR. HURST: Thank you very much.
MS. LAMP: Are we just stipulating to the admission of 34?
MR. HURST: The tape?
THE COURT: The tape will be marked 34.
MR. HURST: Yes.
MS. LAMP: Okay.
THE COURT: 34 will be admitted.
(At 8:02 a.m. PX 34 marked, admitted)
THE COURT: Mr. Henderson, come on up, I’m sorry to keep you waiting.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, at this time may the witnesses be in the courtroom since we’re done taking testimony? I just don’t want any problems later. There’s people that have testified that are in the courtroom and I don’t want to get in trouble.
THE
COURT: We’re not going to have any more
on what?
MS. LAMP: On the primary case or the forfeiting.
THE COURT: Contempt or the primary case? Gentlemen?
MR. DUNGAN: There’s two addi--what, three additional, two additional witnesses on the contempt.
THE COURT: On your side?
MR. DUNGAN: On our side.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. HURST: We don’t have any problems if there are witnesses in the courtroom, as long as it’s a place of decorum which I know the court will make sure that it is.
THE COURT: I’ll try my best.
MR. HURST: Absolutely.
THE COURT: Miss Lamp, on their witnesses on the contempt.
MS. LAMP: Pardon?
THE COURT: They want--you have two witnesses in addition to Mr. Henderson?
MR. HURST: Yes. I believe there may be three.
THE COURT: They’ll still be in the courtroom?
MS. LAMP: I would ask that they be sequestered, just the two that are going to be testifying--
THE COURT: All right. All witnesses, exam, forfeiture, everybody out.
MS. LAMP: Okay.
MR. HURST: All right.
THE
COURT: We’re not going to get into the
monkey business. Mr. Henderson, step
up. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony
you will give in this mater will be the truth, so help you God?
MR. HENDERSON: Yes, I do.
THE COURT: Have a seat up here. Watch your step. And that chair as you remember is on rollers.
THE WITNESS: Yes. And I know it won’t make it louder.
THE COURT: Won’t make it any louder, Mr. Henderson, so make sure you speak up loudly and distinctly and I know you’ve done this before, but state your full name again for us please.
THE WITNESS: James Edward Henderson, Jr.
THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Hurst?
MR. HURST: Your Honor, I’m going to, not having been here at the last hearing I’m just going to start going through what I anticipate may have happened, and if I need to be corrected I would ask that you correct me.
THE COURT: Are you going to be the one asking the questions then?
MR. HURST: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Go ahead, Mr. Hurst.
JAMES EDWARD HENDERSON, JR.
Called at 8:03 a.m. by the Defense, sworn by the court, testified:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HURST:
Q. Have you had the opportunity to view this video tape described as exhibit number 34?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And when did you view it, at the last court hearing?
A. At the last court hearing, afterwards, correct.
Q. Okay. And is this the video tape regarding the alleged exchange which occurred at the, near the security desk in the downstairs of the courthouse?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay. Do you remember that day?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. And what were you doing that afternoon just shortly before you left the courthouse? Were you up here in court?
A. Correct, we were.
Q. Okay. And when you were leaving the courthouse were you going out in the area near the security, the, I guess what we call the metal detector?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And how many people were with you?
A. At least--I was talking to Peggy, behind me was Matt and Shannon and then there was like my sisters and my mom and Matt’s parents, there was a whole group of us, probably about twelve of us. We all stayed here, let Animal Control and everybody exit the building first and leave so there would be no problems, and then we all decided to leave because we got told we were too loud up here by a probation officer or something.
Q. Okay, all right. So there was quite a large group of you, a large contingent?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And you allowed the Animal Control and other prosecution witnesses to leave the building first as a matter of courtesy?
A. Correct.
Q. Was it also your understanding that that was something that the court would appreciate that you would do?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. So did all those people leave the building to your knowledge?
A. All the people left the building or returned to their offices to my knowledge.
Q. Okay. And of course it wasn’t your job to pay attention to where they were, went after they left, it was just your understanding that they had departed the building as they were instructed to do. Is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And then it was your turn to leave the building.
A. Correct.
Q. All right. Did you go down the steps or the elevator?
A. I think we actually went down the steps.
Q. Okay. And as you were exiting the building did you go past the metal detector?
A. Correct, we did.
Q. Okay. And what were you doing at that moment as you’re passing the metal detector?
A. I was walking, talking to Peggy about the case and then she had to drop back for a minute because all of a sudden the metal detector’s in our way and you, so I kept going through and she stepped back behind me, so she dropped back.
Q. So she stepped back behind you. And did you continue talking to her?
A. I did continue talking to her.
Q. Okay. Now, you’ve seen this video--
THE COURT: You did--I’m sorry, I’m sorry. You did continue?
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
BY MR. HURST:
Q. You’ve seen this video, right?
A. Correct, I have.
Q. You understand I haven’t seen it.
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And as you, as she dropped back because--did she drop back because you had to go around that little area in single file?
A. What happens is--right. We’re both walking along and then all of a sudden there’s this metal detector in here and the only way that we both could have went is if I would have went all the way over to the wall. And then Officer Wheaton was already there, there was not room for me to move, I had to just go one, and so she had to then drop back which also forced--
Q. She is?
A. Peggy, I’m sorry.
Q. Okay.
A.
Which also forced Matt to step back, and so now Peggy was next to
Q. And Officer Wheaton you say was right there?
A. Correct.
Q. And she’s one of the prosecution witnesses, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And she was one of the prosecution witnesses that you understood was supposed to be or had been leaving the building?
A. Correct.
Q. Was she moving in the same direction as you leaving the building, or was she coming back toward you?
A. No. She was coming back in and chose not to go through security, so she went around purposely, I mean went right by me, had to go around me.
Q. Okay. So she walked right around you.
A. Correct.
Q. And right next to you.
A. Correct.
Q. She did not go through security?
A. She did not go through security.
Q. And she was going in the opposite direction.
A. Right, she was coming in the building.
Q. So did she pass right past you?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And was she on the opposite side of where Peggy was?
A. Correct, yes. Peggy’s on my right, she was on my left.
Q. So were you turning to the right to talk, talking with Peggy and she was on your left? Meaning she, meaning Officer Wheaton?
A. I seen her at the same time-—
Q. Seen who?
A. I seen Officer Wheaton at the same time that Peggy dropped down and so I kind of like just dropped my head like this, I didn’t even want to make contact because I’ve been accused of other things.
Q. Okay.
A. I just wanted, and then I was still trying to carry on my conversation with Peggy, correct.
Q. Okay. And you carried on your conversation with Peggy, is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. As you’re talking to her, speaking to the right.
A. Correct.
Q. And Officer Wheaton is on your left.
A. Correct.
Q. And you understand that there is a no contact, no communication provision in effect?
A. I absolutely do.
Q. There’s no mistake in your mind about that?
A. No mistake.
Q. And, and would you ever deliberately violate that provision?
A. That’s why I even purposely did not even leave the building where there would be any accusations that I was trying to leave with them, get on the elevator with them, anything.
Q. And you understand what no contact means.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. You understand what no communication means.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Does that mean to you that you are not even to speak to one of the prosecution witnesses?
A. I’m not allowed to talk to any of their witnesses, correct.
Q. And did you speak to Officer Wheaton that day as she walked past you?
A. I absolutely did not. I never addressed her, I never said, Officer Wheaton, ma’am, miss, hey you, nothing. No addressing to her whatsoever.
Q. And you continued talking to Peggy Johnson.
A. Correct.
Q. And did you make any vulgar or inappropriate remarks toward Officer Wheaton?
A. I do not recall-—well, I absolutely did not make any vulgar remarks to Officer Wheaton. What I was talking about at that time, I banged my head on the table trying to remember what are we talking about, the cut on the horse’s leg, were we talking about, you know, what were we talking about at that exact time that could come off as that type of word, but I was not, I never addressed Officer Wheaton.
Q. Because you are aware of the word that you are accused of using.
A. That she tried—-correct. She testified to a word. Right, she testified to a word.
Q. And you understand that to be the kind of word that no respectable gentleman would ever use in the presence of a woman.
A. Correct.
Q. Any woman.
A. Correct.
Q. I don’t care if she’s a law enforcement officer or not, you understand that.
A. Correct.
Q. Is that your position as well?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And did you use that term or any other derogatory term in reference to Officer Wheaton on that day at that time?
A. I did not.
MR. HURST: Okay. I have no further questions of this witness.
THE COURT: Miss Lamp?
CROSS-EXAMINATION(At 8:09 a.m.)
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Mr. Henderson, were you calling Peggy a cunt?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Were you calling anybody else there, security officers, anybody else who might have been in that vicinity, a cunt on that day on your way out of the courthouse?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. And Mr. Henderson, is it my understanding that you were going out of your way to make sure you didn’t violate any of the bond conditions because you wanted to do that to be good and upstanding and consistent with your position in Washtenaw County?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So is it true that on a previous occasion you actually grabbed Director Kim Luce’s arm and told her you were going to come out to the farm after you’d been ordered to have no contact with any of the witnesses in this case?
A. Correct. I touched her and said we’ll be out to fix the stall tomorrow. In fact, that’s why I wanted to make absolutely sure that it did not happen this time--
Q. You’ve answered the question.
A. -–and I did not walk out--
THE COURT: Mr. Henderson-—
MR. HURST: Your Honor, I would ask that the prosecutor allow the gentleman who’s being put on the stand and possibly cited for contempt, to explain, to finish his statement and explain what it is he was trying to say.
THE COURT: Well, my understanding was it was a yes or no response, Mr. Hurst, but I understand what you’re saying and you certainly I’m sure will follow up on that. Make sure if it calls for a yes or a no, just answer yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Any explanations we’ll follow up with either, Miss Lamp may follow up or Mr. Hurst will give you the chance. Okay, Mr. Henderson? Thank you very much. Miss Lamp?
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. And Mr. Henderson, is it also true that you were, that you’re not supposed to be at the farm, is that something that you understand is a court order that’s been in effect since the beginning of this case?
A. Absolutely, yes.
Q. Okay. And yet were you not bicycling by as close as you could be to the farm last night without being on the farm?
A. I rode my bicycle, yes, to go into, yes, I rode to talk to some people, correct, yes.
Q. Okay. So would it be a fair statement do you think to say that there’ve been a couple of occasions where one could construe that perhaps you’ve violated some of those bond conditions?
A. Like the helicopter? No.
Q. Like touching Officer Director Luce’s arm and—-
A. Okay, yeah, okay.
Q. –-like riding, being as close to the farm as you could be without going on it. It seems to me that maybe we’re shading the lines there. Would you agree to that?
MR. HURST: Well, Your Honor, I would like to know who’s shading the lines here. Is it the prosecutor or is it the witness?
THE COURT: Let’s just ask one question at a time. You ask it, finish it. When she finishes, then you answer it and you wait for him to finish. Don’t interrupt her questions, okay? One question at a time, Miss Lamp. Go ahead.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Would it be fair to say that there have at least been a couple of occasions where you have either violated your bond conditions directly in the case of Officer Luce, or come as close as you possibly could be to not violating your bond violations by riding by the farm on your bicycle when you have no business being there. Is that fair?
A. Which questions?
Q. The two questions were, is it—-
A. I know, one at a time though.
Q. No, one question. Is it possible based on those two factors for somebody to think that you may have either violated or come close to violating-—
MR. HURST: Your Honor.
THE COURT: Miss Lamp, Miss Lamp. Step back.
MR. HURST: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Miss Lamp.
THE WITNESS: This is consistent with you staring me down in the hallway.
THE COURT: Mr. Henderson, Mr. Henderson. Thank you. Miss Lamp?
MS. LAMP: I asked the question.
THE COURT: Miss Lamp, ask the question.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Is it fair to say that somebody could construe that perhaps you were now going out of your way to appear to not violate your bond conditions when you grabbed Director Luce by the arm and addressed her directly in the hallway after court proceedings?
MR. HURST: I would object to the nature of the question. It misstates the facts. She said grabbed Director Luce. The witness testified he didn’t grab Director Luce, he touched her on the arm. If she’s going to ask the question, Your Honor, I think she should at least be fair in asking the question.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, that’s a subjective characterization.
MR. HURST: I agree.
THE COURT: By you or by Mr. Hurst, by Mr. Henderson?
MS. LAMP: I think by all of us I suppose.
THE COURT: All right. Well--
MS. LAMP: I could direct--
THE COURT: I think Mr. Henderson can answer the question that he grabbed her by saying no, you can’t construe that. If she wants to rephrase it to touching, then maybe he can answer a different way.
MR. HURST: I agree.
THE COURT: So the question is grabbed. Do you understand that?
THE WITNESS: Right, right. So, no.
THE COURT: Okay. The answer. So, no.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. And what about touching?
A. Correct, I did.
Q. Okay. And would it also be fair to say that, that you have no business bicycling by the farm when you’re ordered not to be there last night?
A.
I absolutely have every right to bicycle on the road. I was not on the farm. I live in
Q. Is it fair to say that you bicycled pretty much as close as you could be to the farm without going on it?
A. I bicycled on the road the legal way you’re supposed to bicycle on the road. When I came this way I was on the-—
THE COURT: Mr. Henderson, Mr. Henderson.
THE WITNESS: So, no.
THE
COURT: Tell us where you were on
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Where were you? On the shoulder, in the drainage ditch, on the easement?
THE WITNESS: Actually I was on, I never even went to the road, I stayed on the side of the road. There was never a car, you know, I drove on the—-
THE COURT: On the paved area?
THE WITNESS: Yes. The paved area right where you’re supposed to both times when I left, I rode, when I rode by twice, coming and going. When I rode one way I rode on the legal side, when I left to go the other way it was across the street from it on the legal side. So both times it was the legal side, the way I’m supposed to ride a bicycle.
THE COURT: Okay. Miss Lamp?
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Isn’t it true that at one point you were riding on the illegal side of the road in the wrong direction closest to the farm?
A.
I would say that would be absolutely non-true on
Q. Maute Road?
A. Maute Road where I’m not even anywhere near the horses, past the river on the back side, at one time somebody got out of a car and was snooping around and I stopped and asked them what they were doing snooping around. I said you can’t walk on that property, that’s been seized.
Q. So was that a yes, you were on the wrong side of the road on Maute? Because that’s what the question was.
A. On Maute, yes.
MS. LAMP: Okay, thank you. Nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Hurst, do you have any further questions?
MR. HURST: No, Your Honor. It’s my understanding the prosecutor is not asking the court to violate the gentleman for riding his bicycle on the road.
MS. LAMP: That’s correct.
MR. HURST: I’d like to get that straight.
MS. LAMP: That’s correct.
MR. HURST: Okay. So then I have no questions.
THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Henderson, you may step down. Watch your step there as you go down and have a seat back on the bench or wherever they’ve got you located.
(At 8:15 a.m. witness excused)
THE COURT: Mr. Hurst?
MR. HURST: Yeah, I’d like to hear from that Peggy Johnson. I think the court would as well.
MR. DUNGAN: I’ll call for her.
MR. HURST: Thank you, Mr. Dungan. Please take the witness stand and be sworn.
THE COURT: Step up please. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you will give in this matter will be the truth, so help you God?
MS. JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
THE COURT: Come on up, watch your step coming up. And that chair is on rollers, so be careful. The microphone is not going to make you any louder, so make sure you speak up loudly and distinctly for us. State your full name.
THE WITNESS: Peggy Johnson.
THE COURT: How do you spell Peggy?
THE WITNESS: P-e-g-g-y.
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Hurst?
MR. HURST: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: She’s sworn and identified herself.
PEGGY JOHNSON
Called at 8:15 a.m. by the Defense, sworn by the court, testified:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HURST:
Q. Do you know Jim Henderson?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. And were you with him at the courthouse the last time he was here?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recall this incident involving you and Mr. Henderson walking out of the courthouse?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. Was there a lot of people leaving the courthouse at the same time?
A. Yes. When we left, Matt’s dad was getting kind of frantic and saying I’m sick of the lies, I’m sick of the lies, and Jimmy very calmly said, let’s take it outside. He was very calm.
Q. And were you guys up here when that was said or-—
A. Yeah, we were--
Q. –-were you downstairs, or where were you?
A. We were right here by the door.
Q. Okay.
A. And so I started following Jimmy and we walked down the stairs and we were just talking.
Q. And were you planning to exit the building?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you walking toward the direction of the exit?
A. Yes, we were.
Q. Were you speaking with Mr. Henderson at the time?
A. Yes, just--
Q. Were you walking next to him? Were you guys, were you and Mr. Henderson together?
A. Yes, we were side by side.
Q. Leaving the building together?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And do you recall approaching the area of the metal detector?
A. Yes. It was all sort of a blur because everything was quiet and we were side by side and at one point I just kind of moved forward or backwards and I heard absolutely nothing.
Q. Okay. And did you move backwards or forwards because the area of the metal detector as you’re leaving the building is a rather constricted area?
A. Yes.
Q. So you were not able to walk through that area side by side with Mr. Henderson.
A. I would imagine that’s what it’d be because we were right together and that’s where I wanted to be and I couldn’t at one point.
Q. And were you talking with Mr. Henderson up until that point?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And did you continue to talk with Mr. Henderson at the point where you walked past the metal detector?
A. No. Nothing was said when I left him.
Q. Was Mr. Henderson talking with you up until the point in time where he approached the metal detector?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And after you went past the metal detector, did you continue to walk near or by or next to Mr. Henderson as you left the building?
A. As I—-what point, I don’t know what you’re talking…
Q. Listen to the question very carefully. Do you recall walking past the metal detector?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. And did you continue to walk out the building?
A. No. I stopped after I heard some commotion. I heard nothing coming from Jimmy.
Q. Where did you stop at?
A. It was somewhere, I mean, I don’t know exactly. It was somewhere around the metal detector.
Q. Okay. And what--
A. It was probably--
Q. Why was it that you stopped?
A. I was waiting for him.
Q. Okay. And what was it that you observed?
A. I didn’t hear anything.
Q. I didn’t ask you what you heard. I asked you what you observed. What was it that you observed?
A. I didn’t observe anything until I heard commotion going on.
Q. And what did you observe with regard to the commotion?
A. Um…
Q. For example, let’s talk about Officer Wheaton. Did you see her?
A. I saw her come into the building.
Q. Okay. So she was coming into the building as you were leaving the building.
A. Yes.
Q. And was she walking in the opposite direction of you and Mr. Henderson as you were walking through that narrow area by the metal detector?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Okay. And was she talking on her cell phone?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Okay, so—-
A. I was not look—-it was just the blue uniform.
Q. All right. So you weren’t paying attention to her.
A. No.
Q. All right. And then describe what you recall about the commotion.
A. I did not hear anything until I heard something similar to stop, stop, stop, and my mom at that point coming up to me. She was near the door there, the first door before you got out. And I’m like, just a minute, Mom, I don’t, what’s going on, you know, and I turned my head and I’m just listening. Like I had no idea what was going on.
Q. And who was yelling, stop, stop?
A. I’m not even sure, but it was a gal in a blue uniform.
Q. All right. And have you been made aware of the fact that Mr. Henderson was accused by Officer Wheaton of making a vulgar remark toward her?
A. Yes, I heard.
Q. Have you been made aware of that?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Did you hear him say that when--
A. No, and when I heard it, I’m--
Q. Let me finish the question. Did you hear him say those words that he’s accused of saying?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Okay.
A. I didn’t hear-—
Q. Did you hear him say any words similar to those words that he is accused of saying?
A. No. I heard nothing from what he was talking to me of, nothing.
Q. Do you recall some of the things he was talking to you about?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What were some of those things?
A. We were walking down the stairs and he was the one that wanted to go out of the building to be calm, get out of there. And he said, he seemed to be in a good mood, he’s like, how do you think it went today, and I said very well. I said Brad, the guy that testified that day, I said, you know, they’re not friends, that’s what I was telling him, and I said, he had a lot to gain by—-
MS. LAMP: I’m going to object to her characterization of the testimony. It’s not relevant to the bond violation hearing, Your Honor.
MR. HURST: I think I asked the question what was it she recalled that her and Mr. Henderson were talking about.
THE WITNESS: That’s what he asked.
THE COURT: Miss Johnson.
MR. HURST: I’m not asking for characterizations, I’m--
THE COURT: Be quiet. You’ve got to pay attention to Mr. Hurst and when he and I are talking, you be quiet.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE
COURT: Okay? Because I got to keep you quiet if you
won’t. Do you understand that?
THE WITNESS: I will.
MR. HURST: Thank you very much for that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I’ll overrule the objection. Continue with that line of questioning.
MR. HURST: Thank you very much.
BY MR. HURST:
Q. Do you recall what you and Mr. Henderson were talking about?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And would you go on in describing for us the words that you were exchanging, you and Mr. Henderson. Would you like me to repeat that question? Listen to me very carefully.
A. Yes.
THE COURT: Let me do this, Mr. Hurst. Were you talking about the day’s activities in court?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE
COURT: Were you talking about the
various witnesses that testified?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Were you commenting about their testimony and how you felt it went?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And was Mr. Henderson responding in kind in talking to you about those things as well?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Why don’t we leave it at that as opposed to details.
MR. HURST: Very well, Your Honor.
THE COURT: As opposed to details, but a general, the context of the conversation.
MR. HURST: I agree.
THE COURT: And now this probably will lead you into your next area you’d like to get into.
MR. HURST: Perhaps my last question.
BY MR. HURST:
Q. And did you hear Mr. Henderson make any remarks or characterizations including of a vulgar nature about Officer Wheaton as he was walking past the metal detectors?
A. No.
MR. HURST: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay, Miss Johnson, Miss Lamp will have some questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (At 8:21 a.m.)
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Miss Johnson, as I understand it, was there a lot of stuff going on there in that area, people coming out and a group of you going in--I’m sorry, people coming into the courthouse and a group of you exiting the courthouse at the time that you were there?
A. I saw a blue uniform coming in and our group right behind.
Q. So there were people coming in and people exiting the courthouse. Correct?
A. Person coming in. I did not see a bunch of people coming in.
Q. Okay. Was there more than one person coming in? Is it possible that there was more than one person coming in the courthouse at the time that you guys were exiting? Is that probably likely?
A. From what I remember, no.
Q. Okay. And there was a large group of you leaving, is that correct?
A. We had not gone through the doors, we were kind of just—-
THE COURT: Miss Johnson, she asked you whether a large group of people were leaving—-
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: She didn’t ask you were you doing this, were you doing that. Yes, a large group leaving? Yes?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. LAMP:
Q. Approximately how many of you were there?
A. Ten.
Q. Okay. And were there security guards there as well?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how many security guards, if you recall?
A. One to two.
Q. Okay. And were there people talking in that area?
A. (No audible response)
Q. In addition to you and Mr. Henderson.
A. Not that I heard.
Q. Because you testified it was very quiet, so that’s what I’m wondering is, were there other voices talking or was it just you and Mr. Henderson having your exchange and everybody else was silent?
A. I didn’t hear actual words, but I heard faintness around, I know people were talking around.
Q. People were talking.
A. Yes.
Q. So there was other noise as well. Is that correct?
A. (No audible response)
Q. Unless they were signing?
A. Could I say there had to have been, but I did not hear words. They were not close enough.
Q. Yes. And I’m not asking you words. I understand that you would have been paying attention to your conversation, not listening to what everybody else is talking about.
A. Right.
Q. My question is just that there was other noise going on. Is that fair?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And is it possible that Mr. Henderson may have quietly called Officer Wheaton a cunt as he walked past her and is it possible that you may not have heard that statement?
MR. HURST: Your Honor, the prosecutor is asking the witness to speculate. She’s asking her if it’s possible and if it’s fair. I think we’re here to determine if it happened, not whether it’s possible or fair.
MS. LAMP: Well, I think she can testify based on her experience whether it’s possible based on where she was at that time and her observations whether he could have said something quietly and she would have been outside the realm of being able to hear it.
THE COURT: So you’re saying her experience might be people calling a woman a cunt?
MS. LAMP: Or other names, Your Honor. Anything.
THE COURT: I think we’re speculative here, Miss Lamp.
MS. LAMP: Okay, then I’ll withdraw the question.
THE COURT: I understand your point though quite clearly.
MS. LAMP: Thank you, Your Honor. Nothing further.
THE COURT: Mr. Hurst?
MR. HURST: One last question, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sure.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION (At 8:24 a.m.)
BY MR. HURST:
Q. As you were walking along around the metal detector speaking with Jim Henderson, how close were you to him when you’re speaking to him? How close were you two guys?
A. It was probably right there. Like shoulder to shoulder.
MR. HURST: All right. Thank you very much. No further questions.
THE COURT: So if I understand correctly, Miss Johnson, as you, you and Mr. Henderson approached the metal detector, you’re not going to go through the metal detector to go out, are you?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Okay. So you moved to the left?
THE WITNESS: I don’t know which-—
THE COURT: Well, you can’t go to the right because you’re going to go through the belts.
THE WITNESS: I don’t know which way I moved. It’s like--
THE COURT: They’re not going to send you through the belts. So you went to the left, Miss Johnson, follow along here. And were you going side by side as you went around the metal detector?
THE WITNESS: I guess we had to be to get through. I just don’t remember the…
THE COURT: Just like you said, shoulder to shoulder, correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: As you went around the metal detector, correct?
THE WITNESS: (No audible response)
THE COURT: Do you remember this incident at all, Miss Johnson?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, very closely, but I mean…
THE COURT: Had you been drinking that afternoon?
THE WITNESS: Absolutely not.
THE COURT: Were you on drugs that afternoon?
THE WITNESS: I don’t drink, I don’t do drugs.
THE COURT: Were you going around the metal detector shoulder to shoulder?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. And is this the time that Officer Wheaton or the gal in the blue uniform came by too at the same time?
THE WITNESS: Yes. She walked past us.
THE COURT: Okay, all right, thank you, thank you. Step down, watch your step, go sit out in the hall. Don’t talk to anybody.
(At 8:25 a.m. witness excused)
THE COURT: Mr. Hurst?
MR. HURST: Thank you, Your Honor. I’d like to call Shannon Patzer to the stand. Thank you, Mr. Dungan.
THE COURT: Step up please. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you will give in this matter will be the truth, so help you God?
MS. PATZER: I do.
THE COURT: Come on around. Watch your step, that’s still on rollers, okay, so be careful. That won’t make you any louder, so make sure you speak up loudly and distinctly for us and state your full name.
THE WITNESS: Shannon Marie Patzer.
THE COURT: Spell your last.
THE WITNESS: P-a-t-z-e-r.
THE COURT: Mr. Hurst?
MR. HURST: Thank you, Your Honor.
SHANNON MARIE PATZER
Called at 8:26 a.m. by the Defense, sworn by the court, testified:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HURST:
Q. Miss Patzer, my name is Dennis Hurst. Do you remember leaving the courthouse with Jim Henderson and Peggy Johnson and Matt Mercier and all of the other people the last time you were here?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Was there quite a contingent of people here on the second floor?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you part of that group?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then did you decide to leave the building?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go down the stairs?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. And were the other people in the group leaving the building as well?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. Okay. And you were walking along with whom?
A. I was walking with Jim and Peggy, and Matt was behind us.
Q. Okay. And do you recall the period of time or the point in time when you started to approach leaving the building where you have to go around that metal detector?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And did you go around the metal detector on the left hand side?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And please tell us where Mr. Henderson was as you were walking around the metal detector to leave the building.
A. He was in front of me.
Q. Okay. And where was Peggy Johnson?
A. Beside me.
Q. Okay. And where was Matt?
A. Behind me.
Q. All right. And who was Mr. Henderson—-was Mr. Henderson speaking with anyone as he was leaving that area of the building to go around the metal detector?
A. Right at the metal detector?
Q. Right at that point in time and before.
A. He had been speaking with Peggy.
Q. Okay. And when he went around the metal detector, were you right there?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Okay. And do you recall anything occurring at that point in time that you could describe for us?
A. I don’t remember anything being said at that point. We were trying, you know, it’s really tight there going through the metal detector, everybody’s trying to get through. Officer Wheaton was coming in, so, and she passed by Jim and—-
Q. She walked right next to Jim?
A. She walked past him at—-the metal detector is like right here and she was coming in and he was going out and Peggy and I were behind him and, you know, we just passed by. I didn’t hear anything said to her and by the time we got through the metal detector she was yelling, stop, stop, stop, and, you know, I stopped. I didn’t know what was going on. All I know is that she was yelling for us to stop, and, you know, she had security stop Mr. Henderson.