THE COURT: Mr. Dungan, can we leave this preliminary or final or whatever it was for the court recorder?
MR. DUNGAN: Sure.
THE
COURT: I have exhibit B, C up here and
I’ll pass on
(At 1:40 p.m. recess)
(At 1:48 p.m. proceedings reconvened; Court,
counsel, parties present)
THE COURT: Okay. I apologize for that interruption. Mr. Dungan?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes, Your Honor. Our next witness is Brad Chaltry.
THE COURT: Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you will give in this matter will be the truth, so help you God?
MR. CHALTRY: Yes, I do.
THE COURT: Watch your step. The chair is on rollers, so be careful. And the microphone is not going to make you any louder, so make sure you speak up loudly and distinctly for us. Okay? State your full name.
THE WITNESS: My full name is Bradley Charles Chaltry.
THE COURT: Bradley Charles. And spell the last name?
THE WITNESS: C-h-a-l-t-r-y.
THE COURT: Chaltry?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Dungan?
BRADLEY CHARLES CHALTRY
Called at 1:49 p.m. by the Defense, sworn by the court, testified:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Mr. Chaltry, what’s your address please?
A.
Q. What kind of property is that?
A. A farm. A ranch.
Q. How many acres?
A. Ten.
Q. All right. You live in a, you have a house on that where you live as well?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Keep animals on the farm?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you keep out there?
A. We have horses, goats, sheep, pot belly pigs, chickens, ducks.
Q. Dogs?
A. Dogs, cats.
Q. How are you employed?
A. Self employed.
Q. All right. You do construction work?
A. Yeah, we own Ratcliff Construction. We also own Charlie’s Animal Rescue Rehabilitation Relocation, we own Ponies Are Us, we own Ratcliff Animal Removal Services.
Q. Now, when you say we, who is it that you’re referring to?
A. Myself and my wife.
Q. Your wife’s name please?
A. Kim Chaltry.
Q. All right. She’s the one that was not able to be with us here today, correct?
A. Yes, sir. Due to illness.
Q. Now, as far as the Ponies Are Us company, what is that?
A. Ponies Are Us got started about seven years ago. We had a few ponies, we started doing pony rides with the animals. We also started with the DNR license we have for the Ratcliff Animal Removal, we started taking in animals. Well, it went above and beyond a case of taking in wildlife to taking in domesticated animals anywhere from cats, dogs, all the way up to livestock.
Q. All right. And that’s where you fell under the Charlie’s?
A. Yes. Because Ponies Are Us was mainly started to be a pony ride company, we went ahead and started Charlie’s Animal Service for the main reason it was just easier paper work wise and when it comes to just regular office things, phone calls and things like that.
Q. And what is it that you and Kim do through Charlie’s?
A. We get a lot of animals-—
THE COURT: What’s the full name of Charlie’s again?
THE WITNESS: Charlie’s Animal Relocation Rehabilitation and Placement.
THE COURT: Okay, I’m sorry. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Okay. What was the question again?
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. What is it that--
THE COURT: Is that different than the rescue then?
THE WITNESS: Well, see, the one direct, direct with animal removal was, is mainly, it’s in the yellow page ad, mainly as a wildlife ad.
THE COURT: Is there a company with the name, the word rescue--
THE WITNESS: Yes. Charlie’s has the rescue in it. I know I said relocation and placement.
THE COURT: Okay. Got you. Okay, I’m sorry.
THE WITNESS: It should be rescue, rehabilitation and placement. Sorry.
THE COURT: No, that’s fine. Mr. Dungan, I apologize. Go ahead.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. What is it that you do through Charlie’s?
A.
Through Charlie’s we work for a lot of cities, the city of Romulus, city of Dearborn, city of Livonia, a
lot of local cities around us aren’t facilitated to take in agricultural
animals on it, so basically what the cities do is they call us, anywhere from
the city of Romulus calling us that they had a loose cow and needed the cow to
be captured and transported. The city of
A. When you come take all the animals, then what is it that you do with them?
A. Well, we bring them back to the farm and the first thing that gets done with them, they get an assessment on, you know, if any of them are hurt, sick or what not. A personal friend of ours is a veterinarian so he comes to the farm. A lot of times if it’s possible he will go with us, but basically then what we do is we take the animals, we bring them back. Either we’ll bring them to our farm, if they look like they’re sick in any way we take them to a separate farm so they’re not around the other livestock, you know, because some of them are personal pets. So we’ll take them, we’ll quarantine them and then go from there on how we’re going to assess the situation from that point.
Q. All right. So you have other facilities you can use besides your own property?
A.
Yes. My mother-in-law, the whole
family all live within one mile of each other.
My mother-in-law has a ten acre farm right down the street from us. My brother-in-law has eighteen acres. And then we have forty acres on
Q. And are these other family members involved with you and Kim in doing the Charlie’s work?
A. Yes. Right now we have a deal with, up north, with a city up north where we’re trying to get, the DNR is having us come and get like thirty deer. Well, my brother-in-law will facilitate the thirty Seika deer on that.
Q. All right.
A. So it’s like a family run, my father-in-law actually started the animal removal business forty years ago and it’s just been on for generations.
THE COURT: What’s the name of that, Dan Moore?
THE WITNESS: Pardon?
THE COURT: Dan Moore? What business you said he started.
THE WITNESS: Oh, the Ratcliff Animal---
THE COURT: No, you said your father-in-law started some business.
THE WITNESS: Right. The Ratcliff Animal Removal. He started that forty years ago. He passed away in December of ’98, so it went into the family and then we all work together on it.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Brother-in-law, he does exotic animals, camels, zebras, things like that, where we do more your just regular domesticated animals. So if something’s not your standard farm animal, it’s more of an exotic like a Seika deer, he’ll take that to that farm.
THE COURT: How do you spell Sieka?
THE WITNESS: I believe it’s S-e-i-k-a, but I could be wrong.
THE
COURT: Do we have a lot of camels in
THE WITNESS: A lot more than you’d believe, sir.
THE COURT: Do we have one?
THE WITNESS: What’s that?
THE COURT: Do we have more than one?
THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. There’s farms that have--
THE COURT: More than I believe.
THE WITNESS: --twenty to thirty of them on it.
THE COURT: Is that right? Where?
THE WITNESS: All over. There’s every kind of animal you can imagine.
THE COURT: Camels. I mean other than the ones in the zoo or things like that.
THE WITNESS: Most people have dromedary camels, single hump camels.
THE COURT: On a farm.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I’ll be darned.
THE WITNESS: They’re easy to take care of.
THE COURT: All right, thanks. Just a little aside here. Let’s keep it between you and me, okay?
MR. DUNGAN: We can get some education out of this. Nothing wrong with it.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. When you get the rescue work directed toward Charlie’s, I mean how is it that it comes to you?
A. The whole thing just started out with just one web site on the computer and then it’s more or less that by word of mouth on it. Very rarely do we ever get anybody that calls to say we found you on the internet. Usually they’ll tell us either another police department or animal control has referred us.
Q. Okay. You mentioned you’ve done work for the city of Livonia before as far as animal rescue?
A. Yes.
Q. Romulus?
A. Yes.
Q. VanBuren Township?
A. Yes.
Q. Dearborn?
A. Yes.
Q. And Rochester Hills Humane Society?
A. Yeah, the humane society, we’re one of the top on the list for placement. We’re the only one that they don’t, we don’t have to go pick up the animals, they bring them to us.
Q. Okay. And then do you get calls from private persons as well?
A. Yeah.
Q. Under what kinds of circumstances?
A. Sometimes people will call us that they, either the pets become a nuisance, that they either can’t control it or maintain it on the property. Sometimes they just call us if they’re tired of it. Other times they call because the economy is not good and they just can’t afford it no more, anymore.
Q. All right.
A. I mean there’s all kinds of reasons. There will be deaths in families, I could give you a list, you know, a mile long as to why.
Q. All right. And you know what case you’re here on in court today?
A. Pardon me?
Q. You know what case you’re here on in court today?
A. Yes.
Q. You had some involvement initially in that case, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And would you describe for the judge then how that came about.
A. Back in I believe it was March, middle of March, like around the fourteenth, fifteenth, we were contacted by a Chief Luce or Louse on it, and called and said that we were referred to I believe by it was the city of Livonia who referred us. They kind of assessed us of the situation where there was at the time like seventy to eighty horses that were being neglected, was there any way that we could help with it. So my wife and I sat there and talked about it, it was like a Wednesday or a Thursday, you know, the date, like I say, it would be like between the fourteenth and the sixteenth. We talked about it over the weekend on it, you know, is it something we want to get into or is it not. Talking a lot of animals, a lot of work right there. So we talked it over, my wife, actually I believe Chief Luce called us back and we said okay, we’ll come out, kind of, she was persistent on us if we would come out and take a look. The time I called her back it was a rainy day, we didn’t have any construction work going that day, cold and wet, so we decided we would drive out and take a, at least take a look at that point.
Q. We who?
A. Myself and my brother-in-law actually went out.
Q. And what’s his name?
A. He’s Sergeant Joseph Ratcliff.
Q. And sergeant in what?
A. Detroit Fire Department.
Q. Okay. So the two of you drove to Jackson to inspect the farm in Grass Lake?
A. Yes. To take a look to see, you know, what, what was really going on with it, you know, were we capable of handling the situation at that point.
Q. And do you recall that date being March twenty-first, 2007?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. What time did you and the other guy get there?
A. We got there in the late morning. I’d say between like ten and twelve, around there.
Q. All right. Was anybody there waiting for you?
A. Well, we had called Chief Luce-—am I saying that correct, is it Luce or is it Louse?
Q. I believe it’s Luce.
A. Luce? Chief Luce called my wife and then asked and my, I called, my wife called me and I said, you know, we’ll take a ride out there. So she called Chief Luce and she said that somebody would be there at the property, to go ahead and come on out.
Q. What information were you given from the time you’re first contacted until you make it out there?
A. When we were initially contacted they had told us about the horses and we asked what all was involved in getting the horses. At that time we were told, you know, that we’d be able to get the horses, that there were trailers and trucks on the property that would go with them. As always, we ask that any animal if it’s got a pen, any type of things they have to feed the animals with, that that come with it. That’s a mandatory with us, you know, we get the feed and everything with it. So all that would have came with it.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, at this point I’m going to object just for the point that I’m not sure if this is a conversation that--Mr. Chaltry?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MS. LAMP: Did I say that right? That Mr. Chaltry himself had with Director Luce or if somebody else had this conversation based upon the language of how he’s wording it, that we were told. So I would just like a little clarification on that.
THE WITNESS: All right. On that when--
THE COURT: Mr. Chaltry, just a minute. I think what we’re looking for is Mr. Chaltry’s expectations when he arrived as far as versus what he was told, so..
MR. DUNGAN: Exactly.
MS. LAMP: That’s fine, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I’ll take it in that context. Not substantive.
MS. LAMP: Okay, all right.
THE WITNESS: Can I clarify that?
MR. DUNGAN: No, just--
THE COURT: I just did.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Just continue with--
THE COURT: Yeah, what you were told.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: You were told that you were going to take the horses, that there were trailers and something else. And that you would get the feed and…
THE WITNESS: Yeah, and all the tack and all the stuff.
THE COURT: Feed and tack, okay.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. And is that typical of a rescue operation, that—-
A. Yeah. A lot of times when we got out, we’ll get the feed stuff. A lot of times depending upon the situation, some people say, well, you know, we got the saddle goes with the horse, you know, go ahead and take the saddle. Sometimes they’ll say we lost the horse, you know, we have no use for it, we’ll sell it to you for fifty bucks or something, you know, we usually go ahead and buy it. And sometimes we just get people, they’ve taken the animals, they’re not too happy when you get there, so…
Q. All right. So tell me what happened when you arrived then with your brother-in-law.
A. We went out and when we first pulled in, there was like a truck was, had a trailer of round bales, you know. At first we were a little hesitant, you know, is this the homeowner or what-not, and prior conversation on what they were having, I don’t remember exact words on it, but we kind of realized real quick that wasn’t the homeowner or the animal owners, so we just proceeded just to walk back in, walk right in the gate and walked in the pasture.
Q. What did you see as you were walking around?
A. When we first walked up we just kind of noticed certain things like farrier tools laying on the thing. When we went there we were kind of expecting, kind of expecting to see some old hillbilly, you know, horses that were, you know, starved to death, you know, weren’t walking-—
THE COURT: Let’s-—he asked you what you did see, so let’s…
THE WITNESS: Right. So we walked in, we seen farrier tools, walked in and we saw some horses that were-—
THE COURT: This is in the pasture.
THE WITNESS: It’s walking leading to the pasture.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: There’s like a little drive, a dirt drive that goes back to it.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. What are farrier tools?
A. Farrier tools are just basically the clippers, files, used to trim the horses’ hooves.
Q. Okay.
A. There were horseshoes laying there. At that point we kind of were like, you know, they do a little something with these horses. First thing we noticed is a lot of the horses, we weren’t real close to them but we were close enough, you noticed most of their feet were trimmed. Brother-in-law happened to even make a comment like, man, their feet look nice. You know, we were, like I said, we were expecting to see a lot of--
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, again, I’m going to object to what he’s expecting to see.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Was this different than what you were expecting to see?
A. Yes. When I first got to the property I--
THE COURT: From whom did you get your expectations?
THE WITNESS: Well, when we pulled, when they called us and told us what the horses were—-
THE COURT: Is this Officer Luce?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Is that the only one you talked to in Jackson?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And you’re the one that talked to her?
THE WITNESS: Both my wife and I both.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Spoke to her. When we talk about animal cases we always have like a conference call where most, everything’s done on cell phones, so we just keep it on speaker phone so we both know what’s going on.
THE COURT: All right. What were you told by her then?
THE WITNESS: That the horses—-at first they were kind of vague about, you know, the condition-—
THE COURT: Who’s they now? Are you talking—-
THE WITNESS: I’m sorry. Officer Luce was vague about the situations that there was, you know, a lot of horses that were starved and in bad shape. And that was about the gist of it at that time on it. So we drove out to the property and thought we were going to see a bunch of horses that were, you know, half dead, dead, and starved. And when we got there we noticed—-
THE COURT: Did she tell you there were going to be any dead or half dead horses?
THE WITNESS: I believe at the time there was one dead horse. At the time on the conversation.
THE COURT: Did Officer Luce tell you you’re going to see a lot of starved, half starved horses, any dead horses?
THE WITNESS: Not a lot. Usually cases were we go out that is the case.
THE COURT: So you’re saying that your expectations were somewhat of an interpretation from what Officer Luce told you?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. I don’t know where we are now.
THE WITNESS: So—-
THE COURT: Now we’re at the farm?
THE WITNESS: Yes, now we’re at the farm.
THE COURT: You’re walking to the pasture and you see farrier tools and horse shoes.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And you get-—and that’s all you see between--
THE WITNESS: Well, the trailers are there, there’s a truck stuck in the pasture, some farm stuff. There’s a bunch of round bales already stacked at the road. There was a red truck with a yellow flatbed that was off to the east side of the drive with some really nasty looking round bales on it.
THE COURT: What’s nasty looking round bales?
THE WITNESS: I wouldn’t feed them to my horses. They were-—
THE COURT: Where were they?
THE WITNESS: --garbage looking. On the east side of the driveway. Yeah, east side of the driveway. There was Animal Control trucks in the driveway, some police cars, sheriff’s department cars.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Did the two of you that went there meet with any of those folks?
A. Yeah. When we walked through the gate, like I said, we stood there for a second and we were looking at some of the horses and then Officer Wheaton had come up at that time, wanted to know who we were, what we were doing there. I identified myself as Brad from Ponies Are Us on it. We were treated kind of rudely. There was another sheriff that was there and my brother-in-law happened to tell him, you know, politeness, you know, how you doing, sir, and he’s like, no, that’s, you know, sergeant, or lieutenant to you, and my brother-in-law just basically told him, you know, so am I, so… Then we were told to leave the property after we had spoke to Wheaton. She took our driver’s license, both my brother-in-law and I both, driver’s license, took the information from it and asked us to leave the property.
Q. Who asked you to leave the property?
A. Officer Wheaton.
Q. Were you told why?
A. We told her we—-basically is that we weren’t allowed on the property and we said, well, you know, told her exactly who we were, that Chief Luce sent us out there, we wanted, you know, asked if we could see what was in the barn. The horses outside, almost all of them looked perfectly fine, you know, and that’s why we weren’t sure, we wanted to see what was in the barn. We were wondering kind of as to why we were there. Part of the reason to go back to what you said on the conversation is Chief Luce, Your Honor, said that the people had abandoned the horses. So that was kind of part of, you know, what we were expecting to see was an abandonment case, you know. You’re talking the end of winter, how long have they been abandoned, there’s nothing to eat the end of winter, you know, the ground was still partially frozen at that time.
Q. Were you allowed to go in the barn before-—
A. No, sir, we were not. They told us that the worst of the worst was in the barn and we were not allowed to see it.
Q. And who told you that?
A. Office Wheaton and then there was anther woman there and I believe her first name was Machell.
Q. Also an Animal Control person?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. It sounds like you were having a hard time out there trying to tell them-—
A. Yes—-
Q. Let me finish my question. Who you were and what you were there for.
A. Correct. At first, I mean, we were asked numerous times to come out to the farm. We come out to the farm and then we get pushed away. You know, that didn’t make sense to me. At the time it was like, well, you know, we drove about an hour to come here just to be told to leave and we had been asked for days to come out.
Q. How long did you actually get to spend on the farm before you left?
A. We weren’t there but maybe-—well, we sat in the driveway for about five or six minutes and then we weren’t there for a total of about ten, fifteen minutes before we had to leave.
Q. How far did you get into the farm itself in that ten or fifteen minutes?
A. Through just the one gate into the pasture. About halfway between the gate and the truck that was stuck.
Q. How many horses were you able to see outside in that time period?
A. Without counting, it was a majority, about ninety percent of what we ended up seeing that night. Easy ninety percent.
Q. All right. So you guys end up leaving and going back home.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And does something happen where you end up going back again at some point?
A. Yeah. We got back home and we called Chief Luce and we said, you know, what’s going on here. We finally drive out to the place and then you guys tell us we got to leave, you know. What the heck, you know, didn’t understand that, never had that happen before. So anyways, Chief Luce said, well, who told you, you had to leave, and we told her that Officer Wheaton had told us to leave and she said that we didn’t properly identify ourselves. Well, that was the first thing I did is explain who I was, where I was from, and she took my driver’s license so she had my name, my address.
Q. So did you end up working something out with Luce?
A. Talked to Chief Luce and she says, well, let me call you back, let me handle the situation. She called us back. She said that she, that she chewed out Officer Wheaton for treating us that way. She apologized, would we still come back.
Q. Did you agree to?
A. Yes. We waited till my daughter got out of school and then we grabbed our stuff, we grabbed a bag of stuff, anything that we could have because they said the worst was in the barn and we didn’t know what we were going to see, you know.
Q. What kind of stuff did you grab?
A. We grabbed bandages, penicillin, Bute for pain, we grabbed both powder—-
Q. Just a horse first aid kit then?
A. Yeah, basically, your basic first aid kit.
Q. All right. What time did you guys get back then?
A. We didn’t get back there till like four or five o’clock that evening.
Q. And your brother-in-law’s with you again?
A. No. Just my wife and my stepdaughter and I.
Q. Okay. Three of you.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell me what happens when the three of you get there.
A. We get back there, we met with Officer Chapin and a fellow named Willy. As we were driving down the road, once again we see all the cop cars flying down the road and Animal Control, like great, you know, we drove out here again, but when we got to the property we met with Officer Chapin. She was on the property and there was a boy named Willy on the property.
Q. All right. And are you provided with any more information about what’s going on at this point?
A. No. Just Officer Luce, or Chief Luce was apologetic and just really wanted us to come out.
Q. All right. So what do you do once you get there?
A. Once we get there the first thing we did is we just took a quick walkthrough. Went ahead, we looked at everything, all the horses, kind of saw, you know, what needed what real quick. Then we started to walk around to see if we could find anything that we could use to treat some of the horses. Anything from bandages to just anything, bandages, ointments, penicillins. There was a lot of stuff laying around the property.
Q. What were you able to find that was usable?
A. We found, in one of the trailers we found some bandages, basically mostly leg wraps, but they can be used as bandages, they can be used to cover bandages. There was, you know, wormer, but we didn’t worm nothing, lice powder. There was, you know, mainly like bandages and things like that.
Q. What do you do then after this quick overview?
A. After a quick overview, the first thing that we wanted to do was start to feed and water the horses. When we got there the only thing that we saw being fed, I mean, there were round bales at the road, like I said, as soon as you pull in right to your left were a stack of rounds bales, so..
Q. Were they at a place where the horses could get to them?
A. No, sir. They were as close to the road as possible just about. Went to the property, we looked around and there was one round bale out in the pasture at the time I believe. I believe there was one, possibly two. But I know for a fact there was one, one round bale, and there was, you know, seventy, eighty horses on the property.
Q. And is one round bale sufficient for that number of horses?
A. No. We usually figure about one for every five or six on it. Just keeps everybody from picking on each other, you know, beating each other up and allows everybody a equal opportunity to eat. So we went through and we started, started to feed everybody. Well, first, let me back up. First, when we got there Officer Chapin was, we opened the door to the barn and there’s just horses all over in the barn. Stallions were all upset and worked up, you had mares in the barn. She said that they had to get the stallions out of there, that they had a home to place them at. We told them, you know, you don’t gotta place the stallions, common sense says let’s get the mares out of the aisle where the stallion can’t see or want to try to get to her. We pushed all the stallions out, the boy Willy and I kind of fixed the back barn door as best as possible, we managed to slide that shut. There was a gate towards the northeast corner of the barn that we kind of closed off that area, basically got everybody out of the aisle first.
Q. Why did you want to do that?
A. Because the stallions were going crazy trying to get to the mares on it.
Q. Okay.
A. And they were wanting to do their job, you know. Got them out. Then we went ahead and we started feeding and watering everybody.
Q. And why did you want to do that first?
A. Once again, it’s just common sense. It’s just like you, you go to the emergency room, the first thing they’re going to do for you is put an IV in you and start giving you fluids. You know, you’re talking the horses they looked hungry, you know, so we went ahead and started ripping off round bale. They only had the one round bale in there, the horses that were all in the barn, there were some square bales in there, really nice square bales at that. And the horses were eating those, that’s why everybody was in the barn, that’s where, you know, they couldn’t fit around the round bale so they were finding what they could, and I mean, if I leave my barn door open at home my horses would all be in my barn chowing too, you know. So anyways, we started feeding and watering. Like nobody, when we got there nobody had water. I mean, there were none. So we started getting them watered, started ripping off round bales. They had said the reason they hadn’t moved any more round bales, they didn’t have a way to move them. I found a piece of ladder sitting on the property. I went ahead and rolled the round bale on the ladder, chained it to my truck and drug it with my truck, drug it close enough to where we could start ripping it apart. Got it ripped apart, started feeding everybody in the smaller pens. There were three skinny ones that were in a pen. We went ahead and started haying them. To me if I was going to dump the round bale on the property I would have probably dumped it, you know, I wouldn’t have dumped it with the fattest horses, I’d have dumped it with the skinnier. So anyways, we started feeding everybody, started watering. The one boy Willy was in there watering the horses in the barn, was just letting the hose run, you know, we asked him like, you know, why are you, why are you just overflowing the tanks, and he said, well, we got to rinse them out. I told him, you know, take them outside, you know, you don’t just overflow the barn, you know, you can’t flood the stalls that the horses are standing in.
Q. Was it flooded at the time that you got there?
A. There was one, there was a paint horse that had a blanket on it and that one was just pouring. He, his exact words were is he let them overflow for thirty to forty-five minutes to clean them out.
Q. How deep was the muck in the barn?
A. About like a—-oh, how deep was the mud? It was probably about, you know, six to eight inches, just pouring in, pouring in the stall, pouring in, you know, running down the aisle on it. It was like a half a fifty-five gallon drum and it was, when you stick a hose in it and turn it on, you know, it was running.
Q. Okay. So you had to give Willy some direction?
A. Yeah, we had to give Willy some direction. Some of the horses there, was giving them little buckets on it. We started putting electrolytes in all the water, powdered apple flavored electrolytes.
Q. Where did you get the electrolytes?
A. We brought it from the farm on it. Started giving them that to rehydrate, you know, if we figured they hadn’t had any water, better give them a little bit, you know. So we walked around and then we went, when we were going back checking on the horses again, we went, we went back into the barn, started feeding everybody, went back into the barn. We kind of figured, you know, who needed what. We had talked with Officer Chapin and we kind of realized at that point we needed some type of system so we knew who was what, you know, what horse needed what. Obviously if it was going to need anything it would need it for more than a day. Just had to know what horse was what so you’re just saying the brown and white one and there’d be, you know, ten brown and white ones on the property. So the only thing we could find to mark them is I happened to have a can of orange spray paint in my truck, so…
Q. So what did you do with it?
A. We spray painted the horses with numbers.
Q. Just start with one and keep going up?
A. Yeah, we started at one and we ended up going to number eight I believe.
Q. Why not after that?
A. One, pretty much everybody looked pretty good to me, you know. There was really no need to number them after that. I mean…
Q. All right. So eight in particular that you wanted to take a closer look at?
A. There was eight in particular, yeah, that’s probably the best way to put it.
Q. All right. And the rest you didn’t-—
A. Or needed a little more attention.
Q. Okay. And the remaining horses you did not see a need for that?
A. No, I didn’t see any need. They were, I mean besides needing more round bales dumped and needed water, you know, constant water, like really the time you filled up the one and it got empty and we told them, you know, you got to fill the one up in that pen, he said he already did, and we told him the horses drank it. He just kind of like walked away and I’m like, dude, you got to fill it back back up, you know, you can’t--just cuz they drank it, you know, if my horses drank my--you got to fill it up, just have to, you know, common sense you have to have to.
Q. Were you told by anyone when was the last time those horses had received water?
A. We were told that they had been abandoned for like six months. At that point I was wanting to-—
THE COURT: Who told you that?
THE WITNESS: I believe it was Luce. It was either Luce or either Chapin, but I, it was one of the two.
THE COURT: Were you told that before you came the first time to the farm?
THE WITNESS: No, the second when we were on the, the second time between the first and second.
THE COURT: By Luce on the phone call back with Luce?
THE WITNESS: Pardon me?
THE COURT: Were you told that by Luce on the phone call back?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Between the first and second visit. It was Chief Luce on it.
THE COURT: That was--
THE WITNESS: Because I don’t think I’ve ever spoken, I didn’t speak to either one of you two on the phone so it was just always in person, so--
THE COURT: Your expectation is they’ve been something for six months?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, ain’t been fed and watered for six months. At that point I was wanting to breed my horses to it because you got a great horse if you don’t have to feed and water it for six months and it’s still alive. I mean, pardon me for that, but…
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. What would you expect to see of horses that weren’t fed or watered for six months?
A. You wouldn’t see them. They’d be dead on the ground.
Q. All right. What do you do next then?
A. We went through, we started numbering them, started in the back of the barn, you know, I can’t vaguely recall the number on each one by what they looked like, but I’ll try.
Q. I’ll go through those with you in a minute. After you’re there for a while and getting everybody fed and watered, you’re starting to wonder some things.
A. Yeah. Well, one, they were kind of getting upset with us. They, you know, I said the main reason we were there was to doctor the horses, you know, not to feed and water them, they had people to feed and water them. If they had people to feed and water them, they did-—
THE COURT: Who’s getting upset with you?
THE WITNESS: Well, officer Chapin got on the phone and she come back and she said that we were supposed to, I don’t know who she talked to, but she said we were supposed to be there to, you know, give any medical attention that we could, that they had people to feed and water them. She wasn’t rude about it, but she told us that, you know.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. And you also knew that you were going to be examining the individual horses?
A. Yeah, as many as we could at the, that time.
Q. And you wanted them fed and watered first for a particular reason?
A. Right. I mean, if, if a horse is, is hungry, I mean, even if it, if you fed it that morning and you’re going to mess with it that night, if it’s just got food and water it’s just more content and makes your job a lot easier on it. I mean…
Q. So it’s almost a little self preservation for you making sure that they’re fed and watered.
A. Yeah, it just makes my job easy.
Q. Okay. Did you find hay in the barn?
A. Yeah, there was, there was actually some really green hay in the barn, some pretty nice stuff and we had commented on it because it was so bright green for that time of year. It was pretty nice stuff.
Q. All right. And then you saw some round bales I think too that you weren’t too happy with.
A. Those, by the time we got back the second time, they were gone. They had round bales sitting up by the road, those were still there. That’s what we started feeding on it.
Q. And did you have a conversation with somebody about the poor quality of hay bales?
A. Yeah. I told Officer Wheaton when he(sic) got in, I said I wouldn’t feed that to them horses, it’ll kill them. She had at the time commented the same thing, that she wasn’t going to feed them. I believe you were actually in the process of trying to get them out of there at the time.
Q. And they were gone at the time?
A. They were gone by the time we got back, yeah, they were, they was nasty.
Q. All right. You found any feed in the freezer?
A. Yeah. When we went through the barn on it, there, there was some feed in the freezers, they were big jugs of Cocasoya oil, knew what that was because it’s got a distinct, distinct smell to it.
Q. What’s that used for?
A. A lot of times they use it to fatten up the horses, makes their coats look healthier. They claim it’s good for their joints, but it’s never been proven, but it’ll definitely pack some weight on, it’s like eating Crisco.
Q. You find supplies for the horses too as far as tack, saddles, things like that?
A. Oh, yeah. There was, the one trailer had some really nice saddles, really nice tack.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, I’m going to object to the relevance of this. I don’t know why we’re going through all the saddle and tack equipment. If the court sees wisdom in that then I guess-—
THE COURT: Mr. Dungan?
MR. DUNGAN: I guess he could probably answer that for me with one question or—-
THE WITNESS: Yeah, if somebody just walked away, they’re--
THE COURT: Just a minute. What are you trying to get to?
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. The items that I asked you about that you just say you found. Was that significant to you?
A. Yes, it was.
THE COURT: What was the context though?
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Why was it significant to you?
A. It was significant to me because anybody, even if they walked away and they left the horses, they’re not going to leave ten, fifteen thousand dollar saddles.
THE COURT: So you’re talking about the context that Officer Luce told you that they’d been abandoned six months.
THE WITNESS: Right, right.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: And that’s the one thing. I mean you’re not—-
THE COURT: You had no idea who put the nasty hay there, did you?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. When I got there in the morning--
THE COURT: How did you know?
THE WITNESS: Because when I got there that morning there was a red truck that was hooked up. Remember I said earlier in my statement, earlier that day when we got there there was a guy in a red Dodge pickup with a yellow flatbed, was—-
THE
COURT: To deliver the nasty hay or to
remove the nasty hay?
THE WITNESS: That was to deliver the nasty hay.
THE COURT: How do you know that?
THE WITNESS: Conversation with Wheaton when we were there.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: She said she was getting rid of them on it.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. The person--
A. To go back to the--
THE COURT: We’ll allow it.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Let me ask you one quick hay question. Whoever delivered the hay, was it this guy?
A. No.
Q. Or this guy?
A. Nope.
Q. Go ahead.
A. We had never even seen them on the property there.
Q. Okay.
A. Anyways, to the thing on the abandonment there. I mean, there was like saddles there, I believe there was like some Chavez tack from a--
THE COURT: Based on everything you saw, you didn’t find a farm that had been abandoned for six months.
THE WITNESS: No. They wouldn’t have abandoned that—-
THE COURT: I understand that. The answer is yes. The answer is yes, you saw a farm that had not been abandoned for six months.
THE WITNESS: Correct, yes.
THE COURT: Mr. Dungan.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Did you see any even signs of recent abandonment?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. And what did you see that makes you say that?
A. Well, on one thing, I mean, just the fact that the-–
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, I’m going to object to that. I think that’s a bit speculative and a little too broad, you know.
THE COURT: Well, there’s no context. Recently abandoned. I don’t know. Pretty clear from previous testimony that something wrong was going on, Mr. Dungan, before the Animal Control people got there. So I don’t know--
MR. DUNGAN: This is when Animal Control people got there, Your Honor. This is within—-
THE COURT: I know this is when it is, but something was going on before and he doesn’t have the foggiest idea because he wasn’t there. Was he? He wasn’t.
MR. DUNGAN: I’ll follow it up in a different manner.
THE COURT: I think the important, if you’re trying to show that the Animal Control Shelter are the problem here, you’ve probably got a long, high mountain to climb on that one, Mr. Dungan, I’ll be honest with you now.
MR. DUNGAN: No, that may be--
THE COURT: That’s not going to work.
MR. DUNGAN: Huh?
THE COURT: That’s not going to work if you’re blaming the Animal Control shelter from the fourteenth or fifteenth to the twenty-first. Any other comments, you got to leave. Do you understand what I’m saying, Mr. Dungan?
MR. DUNGAN: Sure.
THE COURT: I’d like to get to something that this guy is going to tell us other than he now finds that it hadn’t been abandoned for six months.
MR. DUNGAN: All right.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. There were eight horses in particular that you looked at. Correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And let’s talk about those eight and how, how they were identified to you and what it is that you did with them. And I know there was a report that you’ve seen. Do you need that in front of you to be able to testify?
A. If there was something with like notification of the horses that I could see, it would kind of help me out a lot.
MR. DUNGAN: Your Honor, could I approach him with a copy of that report?
THE COURT: Sure.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: What are we looking at now, Mr. Dungan?
MR. DUNGAN: Your Honor, that’s a copy of the Animal Control report about his visit out to the farm.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. All right. The eight horses that are going to be, we’re going to be talking about are the ones that were spray painted one through eight?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right, let’s take them in order starting with number one.
A. Number one is the brown stallion. Number one would have been a horse that would have been in the, would have been in the southeast corner of the barn in the very back stall on it.
Q. And what about that horse drew your attention to it or why did you think you needed to spend some time with it?
A. Well, we figured we’d just start in the back of the barn and work towards the front of the barn.
Q. Okay.
A. You know, not start in the middle and that was the very back horse, so we started there.
Q. Okay.
A. The first horse was the brown stallion it says here on it…
Q. Again, I know, show you the report to refresh your memory. I don’t really care what the report says. Tell me what you found.
A. All right. When we got there it, it was, it was like a dark chestnut horse in the very back corner, it wasn’t a very big horse. Most of the horses on the property weren’t, but… When we got there they, when we got to looking at them, by that time Willy had filled all the waters up, the stall was soaked on it, the horse was standing in the corner. To me the horse, to me the horse looked a little thin, but I like big, fat halter looking horses. So to me if it’s not big and fat, you know, it needs to put, needs to put weight on it, and that’s my preference, that’s what I like to see when I look at a horse. Probably the type of horses that I mainly deal in, the discipline, the discipline that we use, that’s what we want.
Q. All right. And do different horse owners feel differently than you about--
A. Different horse owners feel differently and it’s just like anything, like, you know, as opposed, let’s say a track person as opposed to a football player, right. You got a track person, you want them small, thin and in shape, you know, where a football player, the bigger the better, you know what I mean?
Q. So you like the football players.
A. Yeah, I like the football player look. I like them bigger, bulky and shiny, you know.
Q. This particular horse looked more like a track?
A. It looked more like, pardon me?
Q. Like a track runner.
A. Like a track, yeah, exactly. You know, it was thinner, more muscular of a horse, wasn’t big and fat, he had lots of definition to him.
Q. Did you see anything about that horse that suggested to you that it had been tortured in any way?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Or that it had not been provided with adequate food and water?
A. No, the horse--the horse had like no visible cuts, scars, marks on him. Matter of fact, for being a stallion, when you walked up to the gate they were affectionate. As were like almost all the horses there.
THE COURT: Talk about this one.
THE WITNESS: Yes, this one, yeah. I mean he definitely wasn’t afraid of a person.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Is that significant for some reason?
A. Yeah, because--
THE COURT: The question was is you didn’t find any sign of torturing and did you find any sign of not maintaining food and water? Is that what you asked?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes.
THE COURT: That’s the question you were asked. Answer that one.
THE WITNESS: It’s hard to say about not maintaining the food and water. When we got there he didn’t have any water, he had a bucket in there, a little small one, and he had no hay.
THE COURT: I don’t think that’s what he’s asking though.
THE WITNESS: Right. I mean, there wasn’t signs that he had been starved.
THE COURT: He’s asking based on looking at the horse.
MR. DUNGAN: Yeah, based on the observations there.
THE WITNESS: Based on looking at the horse, no, it didn’t look like he’d been starved or, you know.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. All right. Did you end up giving this horse any care or treatment?
A. I don’t think so. Yeah. No, we more than likely didn’t. I mean just feed and water it, give it some hay and give it some water.
Q. Let’s move on to horse number two then.
MR. DUNGAN: And Your Honor, so you’re aware because I don’t think he knows the name of the horse, this is Elvis, Lucky Seven that we’re talking about.
THE COURT: What’s number one’s name? Besides brown stallion.
MR. DUNGAN: Buggy.
THE COURT: Buggy? Okay.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. All right. The number two horse, tell me about that one.
THE COURT: This is Elvis you said?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Lucky Seven?
MR. DUNGAN: Yes.
THE WITNESS: That one, that one when we got it out it was thin and it had, had a really sore back leg on it, didn’t really want to move around a lot on it. Once again, his stall was flooded. We had got him out, once we had all the other horses out of the barn, we actually took him out of his stall and what hay was left after the horses got run out, we took him over there to this really nice hay and went ahead and was letting him eat, you know, just, and he didn’t want to go anywhere, you know, he just stood there and took, just ate. Pretty mellow horse on it, and I believe he was a stud colt too, yeah.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Any issues as far as the care or health of that horse that you saw?
A. That horse there we had gave it, if any of them seemed like they were in the least bit, we gave them penicillin G with Benzathine, it’s just a regular common penicillin a twelve year old kid could buy at Tractor Supply. Gave him Gentocin, which is a lot stronger of a penicillin, they kind of attack different, different types of things in the body on it. And then we gave it Bute for the pain, it’s like giving it aspirin.
Q. Okay. What did you observe as far as the injury to that horse?
A. It, the back, it’s written on here it’s the back right leg which I mean I’m going to have to agree with that because I just don’t remember what leg, you know. I do remember distinctly though it was real sore in the back end on it, walked real stiff.
Q. All right. So you were just able to determine that based on observation then?
A. Right. I mean, it wasn’t, you know, we didn’t do X-rays or nothing like that, you know, we don’t have an X-ray machine so you just kind of go by look, if the leg wasn’t dangling so it didn’t appear that, you know, it had a green stick fracture on it, but it was definitely sore. So..
Q. Was it weight bearing?
A. Not on that leg. It was on the other three legs, but not the sore one, which is common if one has an injury.
Q. And did you have some recommendations for Animal Control about that particular horse?
A. Basically to feed and water it and get it out of that stall. The way the barn was, there was three stalls on that one side. He was in the middle. Take him out of that wet stall, put him in the one next to it, it was bigger and it was dry. Mainly I think it was dry, there were no horses in there when we got there, so there was no need to water anything so nothing got flushed.
Q. Oh, so Willy would have flooded that part?
A. Right. Didn’t flush out the water tub in there. So we stuck him in, we let him eat until we were, you know, about done with everything and then we went ahead and put him in the dry stall.
Q. Move on to the number three horse then, if you would please.
A. Number three horse would have been the grulla mare-—
MR. DUNGAN: Hang on just one second. Your Honor, this is the grulla that we call Moose. Go ahead.
MS. LAMP: Your Honor, before he goes on. We’ve gone through two horses and we’ve got several more to go through. I would just think that it would be appropriate to establish the proper foundation whether he’s going from the report or whether he’s refreshing his memory, did it refresh his memory, does he need to refresh his memory. I mean, before he’s just, he’s looking at the report and testifying. I just want to make sure we know what the source of his testimony is.
THE COURT: Do you remember all this stuff or are you just going off the report?
THE WITNESS: No, I remember it. I’m using the numbers to correlate what horse it is. I don’t, I’ll be honest, I don’t remember which one we numbered which. You know what I mean? I’d have to look at the description it’s got there for the horse so I know which one I’m talking about on it.
THE COURT: That--
THE WITNESS: I mean, I could tell you, I could hand you this paper back and tell you, I mean we’d go through and the numbers aren’t going to be right on them, you know, what number they are. But I without even reading that whole thing could tell you everything about the eight that we looked at.
THE COURT: Will looking at those refresh your memory as far as the two horses you talked about so far?
THE WITNESS: Not refreshing my memory on the horses, putting the number with what the horse looked like.
MR. DUNGAN: It’s just helping us make sure we’re both talking about the same one.
THE COURT: Whose numbers are these then? Are these the owners’?
THE WITNESS: Those were my numbers, I numbered them, but it, I don’t remember which one we numbered which. I mean, there was--
THE COURT: Well, does that help you remember?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. How many horses are we going to talk about? Eight?
THE WITNESS: Eight. The third one was the grulla mare. She was actually in a smaller paddock separated away from the herd with two other horses up by the front. She was really thin on it, once again, they didn’t, they had no hay in there for the horses whatsoever. We had drug a, I believe there was a fifty-five gallon drum that didn’t have water in it, we had filled that up, gave them hay. Looked at her. She was really thin, really skinny. She was walking around okay, a little bit sore, but that’s kind of common when they get a little skinny and it’s cold like that, the ground’s still partially frozen. That one, I know we had said it was, one thing I would have done but we didn’t there, was wormed them on it. To me they didn’t, because the rest of the herd looked fine on it. I wouldn’t say that the horse was starved as much as it was wormy, you know, that it probably either had worms or it had sand ingestion and it needed a sand flush.
THE COURT: Is this the whole herd?
THE WITNESS: Pardon me?
THE COURT: The whole herd?
THE WITNESS: Not the whole herd. That’s the thing is ninety percent of the herd looked absolutely fine. There were a few that weren’t. If you’re starving--
THE COURT: And those few--
THE WITNESS: --them the whole herd would be starved, not just a couple.
THE COURT: Those few looked wormy then?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, they looked wormy and they could have possibly had--
THE COURT: Ten percent looked wormy? You said ninety percent was fine.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, well, eight of the bunch. Whatever percentage that equals up to. Ten percent, whatever. You know, one thing a lot of people just don’t do it, is give them the Sand Clear, a lot of people just use the same wormer, but a different kind of wormer. We’ve had horses that we’ve gotten that looked exactly the same way and that’s all we did.
BY MR. DUNGAN:
Q. Change the wormer?
A. Yeah, you might try two different kinds of wormer on it. We have it down now where we have a little system we use when we worm them.
Q. And did you provide any treatment to the number three horse then?
A. Same thing. Just penicillin, both types of penicillin.
Q. And is that because of a particular problem you’re concerned about?
A. No, just because they were skinny and it was still kind of cold and it rained that day on it.
Q. Precautionary?
A. Yeah. We do the same thing when we get them on our farm. If they look in the least bit not one hundred percent, penicillin is not going to hurt them. The most it will do is give them diarrhea, worst case.